Related
as title mentioned
anyone tested a win 95/98 on ur PPC???
can post some results?
can it work on XDA 2i?
sorry if its a double post
link
http://www.pocketgamer.org/showthread.php?threadid=3660&perpage=12&pagenumber=1
win95 on a ppc?? sorry but I don't think its worth the effort. Booting from a memory card on the machine would take too long, and the resolution of the screen is WAAYY too low. But mostly I think that you wouldn't have an interface to the hardware, likeusing the modem etc.
Its very cool, but its not something that one must have
just for show off
Does anyone have a bootable floppy disk-image for me so that I can install Windows 95 on my Alpine?
Well if you search for Bochs, you will find working step by step instructions.
It's not that bad, if you have lotsof free program memory it runs pretty quick. Double clicking My Computer and it opens in a second or two.
On my device I dedicate 64MB or ram for emulation of Win95. It doesn't even slow down the device when it's in background.
i think CPU and RAM on Himalaya aren´t far enough to
worthy Emulate an PC with Windows 95
lots of People tried this...on much stronger Devices-- Fun looks different,dood!
I did tried it myself on my good old Universal (R.I.P) 2 Years ago
....i just want to say...why not use the time for laundry or sort your Screws....then its better used !
Talk about Pocket PC becoming more powerful
This was made possible by a Pocket PC port of Bochs, by Mamaich, who has also ported DosBox, a "program similar to Bochs but it's a lot faster and only emulates DOS". Sadly, the author tried and failed to get WarLords II working on both these versions, but I'm sure time will tell!
If you're keen to try this on your own Pocket PC, you'll need a minimum of a 256MB memory card (or stream the image over a wireless network) and you'll need a program like Nyditot Virtual Display to increase your screen resolution. Oh, yes, and you'll also need the emulator.
According to Miracle, what we really need now is for another developer to "pick this up and optimize it to get more speed, since Mamaich stated that he will not continue to work on this, but instead focus more on DosBox."
Given that this shows that a Pocket PC is easily powerful enough to run Windows 95 and 98 in an emulator, do you think that attention might shift from developing new Pocket PC games to trying to get the original PC games to work in emulators? While I played a few games in Pocket DOS, the lack of decent controls made enjoying them nearly impossible. On the other hand, a predominantly mouse based game might run quite happily, and allow everyone to enjoy it on the move.
---------------------
Instructions:
WIN95 on Pocket PC with BOCHS 2.1.1 in 30 STEPS
WIN95 and BOCHS on Windows
BOCHS Emulator Homepage
Another Informative Article about PPC/BOCHS and Emulation
Please note: I have not tried this myself. However i believe this to be true and working, since ppc are powerful these days. In saying so, i do not believe this emulator will run on my h6365...you probably need a descent processor speed, probably a minimum of something around 400mhz (i'm guessing)
This opens up a big portal to the ppc world, if win95 can be stable on ppc, all win95 programs can run within ppc...
I do not take any responsibility for damage to your ppc resulting from this post!
Procedure is complicated, you will need to have some knowledge of PPC to do it.
Please if anyone has manage to get it working tell us here! Any problems please post
Bochs for ppc emulator is attached at the bottom!
There are no Links!!!
????
Dosbox...
Don't work under Windows Mobile 2005 version.
And may you install windows 98 or ( Someone had that tried )
But you will got:
Slow performance.
Hardware errors
No sound ( With some devices )
Video problem
more more.
This is an emulated and remaked Windows version, ( and only a rumour )
Becareful.
Thx.
EQUANCY said:
Don't work under Windows Mobile 2005 version.
And may you install windows 98 or ( Someone had that tried )
But you will got:
Slow performance.
Hardware errors
No sound ( With some devices )
Video problem
more more.
This is an emulated and remaked Windows version, ( and only a rumour )
Becareful.
Thx.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's Right
I have done this a long while ago back when I had an Asus A620. I got Win95 to boot in 4-5 minutes. No keyboard, no mouse, but it was interesting.
Really interesting, but only for Win98 retrò experience on my pda, not for other, this os (win98 or 95) is really unstable compared to today microsoft products...it is possible to run win nt or 2000 with same system or ntfs make trouble? just a little workstation, on the xda XD
Dos emulations doesn't support nt platforms.
DosBox a simple Msdos emulation system, like Virtual PC,
the emulation projects maded for simple operations with some hardware restrictions.
such as soundless or low graphics.
The FreeSCI project is one of them. That's amiga emulation platform, now it has been resembled for Windows Mobile based Pocket PC's,
but some games are running slow, someones don't work, soms goes error.
There is no stabilitation.
I suggest, don't try hardluck...
You may lose ur pda,
windows98 maybe run, but WindowsNT never can be.
PDA's are not as notebook and not much flexible.
If you have 800 mhz or higher mobile processor and 128 or 256 mb ddr ram. May you can try to (The pda's will use ddr technology nearly) play some basic windows games.
May be solitaire...
A good dream...
But we don't use miracle devices,
They're only PDA's...
And they have already OS's and games....
Am I wrong?
"DosBox will emulate Windows Vista in future..."
I wish that,
But that will never happen, like windows98 or NT.. (in short times, before 2080 )
THX.
EQUANCY said:
Am I wrong?
"DosBox will emulate Windows Vista in future..."
I wish that,
But that will never happen, like windows98 or NT.. (in short times, before 2080 )
THX.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol.not you are not wrong.i think maybe in the future....vista and his rootkits will run on my old C64
http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_shift_umpc_revealed-news-262.php
Lets go to Windows XP to our PDA's
Seems silly to mean, it has such a tiny screen for running a full copy of vista. Sure it has it's usage, but for me it's a full size laptop running full size windows or a small device running small windows. You can't have a small device running a large windows!
Wait, your not being serious are you?
I'v placed it for a while fun...
Yeah,
Only this,
But someones has been tried windows 98 on BlueAngel devices before 2 years ago, But no mouse, no sound soo much problems and silly bluescreen
Now,
there is a Windows XP portable edition you know,
it's very small about 100 mb +/-
May be...
But only may be,
One PDA ( may be ours )
will use windows XP
This is only an idea, may be dream...
But for only some fun.
I am using Windows 3.0 with a Dosbox port for Windows CE. It is actually quite functional and you do have a mouse!
I have not yet tried to install Win 3.1/95/98.
It is very usefull for DOS programs and games.
Cheers,
vma
Well, a quick google and sure enough....
http://www.pocketdos.com/screenshots_ppc.htm
http://www.pocketdaily.com/index.php/2006/10/22/freeware-dosboxppc-v063/
http://www.freewareppc.com/utilities/dosboxppc.shtml
I'm impressed! Monkey Island!
I'd love to try 98 on the BA...I recall someone posted about it a while ago...can't remember much about it...
EDIT: http://www.pocketgamer.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3660
EQUANCY said:
http://www.gsmarena.com/htc_shift_umpc_revealed-news-262.php
Lets go to Windows XP to our PDA's
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you see is just a theme on a WM6.
Take a look at this Official Demo -
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...43-9b9f-48c8-8195-1000d3398f3f&DisplayLang=en
actually its real vista on a umpc
In theory XP is possible to run on Blueangel and Himalaya (reason: 128 mb ram, 400 MHz CPU), but i dont think that there are drivers and kernel compiled for our devices which are XP compatible.
Really?
This is a good news dude.
Yeah I guess too that is possible.
But we need some drivers about input devices ( mouse, keyboard )
It's not only problem,
We need Wireless drivers too.
And But may be...
If can anyone port BartPE solution to BA, yeah I think that is a day light about XP?
I think processor and mainbord not so much problem for BartPE.
I mean, may we don't need so much space...
Only drivers, necessary main system files and boot files, ( it's about 32 mb )
Really...
Because XP can install on which computer has 64 mb ram and 333 mhz processor,
Cuz,
BartPE can install every drivers to RAM, and BA has enough memory for that.
Now,
Other files (Such as dll's, sys files ) can manage from SD?
We don't need so much big drivers.
But I guess the big problem is.
HOW CAN WE CREATE A BOOT SECTOR ON BA'S FLASH MEMORY FOR BARTPE.
This is like a dead-end of revolution
Thanks...
I think you don't undersand what you are talking about.
Comparing 333MHz PC and 400 PocketPC is a wrong because they sport different architectures. You must first use emulator to emulate a x86 processor of PC. But then the power of 400MHz ARM will be sufficient to emulate something like 50MHz 386 or even less. Usually, emulators don't emulate only processor but the whole machine with all it's hardware.
Are you sure?
Arm, MIPS, XScale, strongarm etc..
These processor have smilar architecture with x86 based processors.
Do you know that?
Because they are 32 bit processors. they have integrated FPU and MPU units.
These processors not maded only for PDA's.
There is so much devices powered with them.
Now,
Important point is not processor architecture.
Because...
Linux and Windows maded with C and C+ software language.
BeOS too...
Now,
Windows CE too...
And at this time, Linux on PDA's a reallity and some people already uses Linux on their devices.
why not XP?
Why
Not?
Hi,
@Equancy: You are wrong.
When you say "emulation" you mean the replication of a CPU and other chips (graphics, sound, etc.) by software.
The phones discussed in this forum do NOT have an x86 compatible CPU.
Recompiling the whole OS for this architecture is NOT emulation and is not very usefull, either, as you would still not be able to run any application. You would need to recompile all applications, also. Forget that!
So far I managed to use MS-DOS (any release) and Windows 3.0 (still have a legal copy with full set of disks). Windows 3.1 won't work with Dosbox.
I have not yet tried Bochs for PocketPC: the Mamaich's links are dead and it is not an easy emulator to setup. On this emulator, Windows 95 is reported to work, though very slowly.
Other great emulatores for our phones:
- PocketUAE (AmigaOS emulator)
- Pocket vMac (MacIntosh emulator)
- PocketC64/Pocket Vice (C64 emulator)
- and the list goes on and on!
Cheers,
vma
I don't talking about any emulator!
Processor
Xscale, ARM, SIPH processors are based on 32 bit processing archtiecture,
There is a Portable PC with Samsung's SIPH processor running on 400 mhz with Windows media center.
Only a few differents,
1,5" mini HDD drive ( 20 gb )
DDR Ram ( 128 mb )
USB-input
But they are expansion hardwares,
I say again,
There is a lot of Linux operated PDA's.
Check These out:
http://pocketworkstation.org/
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?ContentId=2905
http://www.handhelds.org/handhelds-faq/handhelds-faq.html
If linux can install on a pocketPC,
I think XP can install too...
If any body can make a boot sector on BA's flash rom for MsDOS may we will find a day-light in XP shadows
Note: I guess we have another problem,
XP cannot run on 16 bit fat sytems, media center too..
May be I'm wrong, may be these things are completely crazy claims.
But I see them as a "Hope"
Thanks.
Like Windows, Linux has many, many versions. In fact when most people say they have Linux on the PDA it's just a very basic stripped down and hacked version of an old kernal. It's impossibly to do this with Windows XP, as uses a completely diffrent kernal structure, is recoded specificly for newer machinces and is closed source so only microsoft can recode it.
Come to think of it, if Microsoft where to use an old kernal and recode it for smaller CPU's and strip it down, won't they end up with something like, err, Windows Mobile?
Interesting...
Like Windows, Linux has many, many versions.
Linux Kernels are same, shell's are different.
There is no LINUX VERSIONS, ( as you think as )
There is only Linux releases.
Every people make their own Linux Release,
Linux is a Public ( GNU ) licenced OS right?
If you know how to developping linux or writing software then you make your linux.
But that mean,
NEVER you make a new Linux.
You make a Release.
Windows and Linux are different yeah,
But every windows's core systems are smilar.
They are a step of development way.
Come to think of it, if Microsoft where to use an old kernal and recode it for smaller CPU's and strip it down, won't they end up with something like, err, Windows Mobile?
I don't want to write nothing about that...
Windows Mobile come from Windows CE technology,
What ever.
I MEAN NOT WINDOWS XP ON PDA COMPLETELY.
I MEAN A SMALLER AND CUTTED WINDOWS XP VERSION ON PDA,
DO YOU KNOW BARTPE?
I THINK BARTPE IS A KEY.
Thanks.
ONE OF THREE PAGES
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9711/driversnotincludedwu3.png
To whom it may concern:
We are a part of an online organization that talks and communicates daily about several HTC Devices including the AT&T Tilt.
We are unhappy right now with HTC cause several devices are in need of driver updates to fix poor quality pictures, video play back, and playing 3D Games.
By quoting Fred Liu, Chief Operating Officer of HTC, "HTC believes that providing superior after-sales support is important to our continuing success, which is why we place such a high degree of importance on HTC Care. In the future, a number of HTC Care centers will be launched in Taiwan and overseas, allowing our customers to enjoy their mobile lifestyles without missing a call."
WELL in an e-mail received from HTC Customer Support dealing with the needed drivers counter acts the statement above made by Fred Liu, Chief Operating Officer of HTC with the following statement below:
"HTC believes the overall value of its devices based on their combination of functionality and connectivity exceeds their ability to play or render high-resolution video. These devices do still provide a rich multimedia experience comparable to that of most Smartphone and enable a variety of audio and video file formats," reads the official response, in part. Furthermore, the company has officially confirmed that Imageon drivers are not in use on the affected devices, but that it "plans to include video acceleration hardware in future video-centric devices that will enable high-resolution video support."
Are we as the consumer understand the statement made by HTC Customer Support over rules Fred Liu, Chief Operating Officer of HTC Statement.
The reply made by HTC Customer Support effects the following HTC Devices and their owners (which includes AT&T Tilt):
HTC TyTN II (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC Kaiser
T-Mobile MDA Vario III
AT&T Tilt
Vodafone v1615
HTC Touch Dual (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC Nike
HTC Touch Cruise (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC Polaris
HTC Wings (MSM7200), also known as:
HTC S730
HTC Titan (MSM7500), also known as:
Sprint Mogul PPC-6800
Verizon XV6800
HTC Vogue (MSM7500), also known as:
HTC Touch P3050 (this is not the normal HTC Touch)
Sprint Touch
Verizon Touch XV6900
HTC Libra (MSM7500), also known as:
HTC S720
HTC Iris (MSM7500), also known as:
HTC S640
For this the update we ask for will not be given to current devices but will be applied to future devices instead. All these devices listed above are the ones that has this problem with poor direct draw drivers(video play back, poor camera quality, and 3d games like call of duty 2).
Further more they insult us by saying they will update future devices with the update that is needed with current devices. That means we paid high dollar for a device that is to beat all devices and they will not support their device that beats all devices. According to their website and I quote (from TyTn II Overview found here http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_tytn_II.htm):
"More powerful than any mobile communications device you've seen before, the HTC TyTN II takes global connectivity to the next level.
Staying connected means staying ahead. The TyTN II supports the full spectrum of network standards, guaranteeing that you will stay in touch ANYWHERE in the world. With an internet connection via 3.5G HSDPA that is nine times faster than 3G, using the TyTN II to download files and surf the Web is a breeze.
Communicating on the go is easier than ever with an innovative, ergonomic LCD design that positions the touch screen perfectly for reading and creating e-mails, using applications, or even just playing games.
Important information is just a glance away with HTC Home™, which displays a big clock and provides live weather updates, access to a quick application launcher and one touch ring settings, easy photo dialing, and more.
With a complete suite of Microsoft® Office Mobile applications, including Outlook® Mobile, Word Mobile, Excel® Mobile, and PowerPoint® Mobile, being out of the office doesn't have to mean you're out of the loop. Always ready for business - and pleasure - the HTC TyTN II makes sure you are too."
(Quoted from the HTC POLARIS found on this page http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_htctouch_cruise.htm)
The HTC Touch Cruise™ is sleek, stylish, and compact, but big on features and with an LCD screen size that gives you an excellent multimedia experience in a mobile device. Featuring HTC’s innovative TouchFLO™ interface, the Touch Cruise is extremely easy to use. Using ordinary finger gestures, you can quickly browse through e-mails, web pages, messages, music, and images, making navigation a breeze.
Live HTC Home™ vibrantly displays important information, such as real-time weather updates and a large easy-to-view clock. A quick application launcher provides easy access to favorite programs. HTC Home™ also gives you quick access to ring tone settings making it easy to adjust device sounds and alerts on the fly. The dynamic 3D Touch Cube interface enables you to quickly call contacts, open applications, listen to music, and browse media files.
Built-in GPS functionality and the included software enable you to find the fastest route to your direction, locate restaurants and services on the way, and never get lost. Avoid traffic and delays, and take detours to visit points of interest and local attractions.
TWO OF THREE PAGES
(Quoted from HTC TOUCH DUAL found here http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_htctouch_dual.htm):
Delivering a revolutionary touch experience that will change the way you use your phone, the HTC Touch Dual™ combines an intuitive touch screen and slide-out keypad within a stunning design.
Everything you need is at your fingertips. With the push of your thumb, the front panel of the device slides up to reveal a handy smart-sized keyboard. If you prefer using touch, then the revolutionary TouchFLO™ interface lets you quickly browse through e-mails, messages, music and images by using finger gestures, making navigation a breeze.
With the Live HTC Home™ screen, information such as time, new messages, weather updates, and missed calls is just a touch away. Connect using 3.5G, which is 9 times faster than 3G -- wherever you are.
PLEASE PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE BOLD, HIGHLIGHTED, AND UNDERLINED section above.
This is an example of what HTC claims these devices do but in fact they don't. This is why need help to fix these problems.
From people upset with poor drivers says the following by testing their devices and the results show differently than what HTC claims from their website. The following explains just the opposite from HTC WEBSITE's CLAIM:
(THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS QUOTED FROM THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE: http://www.htcclassaction.org)
Display driver background
Here is some information on how display drivers are generally built up in Windows Mobile devices, as this will be referenced several times later on in this page.
Generally speaking, a complete set of display drivers (which indeed includes multiple drivers) are built up out of one main 'core' driver that does most of the actual talking to the hardware, and several other drivers that provide specific functionality (like GDI, DirectDraw, Direct3D, GAPI, etc) which use that 'core' driver. This is done because some part of the drivers must be responsible of keeping track of all the surfaces, make sure they all don't interfere with each other, etc. Obviously, the easiest way to do that is with such a 'core' display driver. Not having such a driver and having every functionality specific driver just do what it wants could result in weird behavior, and having them all communicate without such a core driver would be a likely source for heavy overhead.
An example of this is the LG KS20 (a device by LG also based in the MSM7200 chipset from Qualcomm). The 'core' driver here is called ahi2dati.dll, which is in turn used by the GDI / DDI, OpenGL ES, and Direct3D drivers. The latter doesn't use it directly, but that is because it's calls are mapped to OpenGL ES calls.
If you look into the complete software system deliverd on the affected phones we have personally tested, this complete system is absent. This is already a good clue that nothing uses the acceleration provided by the MSM7200/MSM7500 platform.
You will notice that on this page it is said several times that the performance from certain drivers is so low it is hardly possible the driver in question is hardware accelerated. This ofcourse compared to the specifications of the MSM7200/MSM7500. It may still be that a very small part of these drivers actually is hardware accelerated, but if that were the case, they did a downright shameful job of it.
Touchscreen
This issue is a bit tricky to get to show at first, but we have found a way to demonstrate it fairly easily. To replicate this, you will need Dynamix 3D Benchmark 1.0b and optionally My Mobiler.
Install Dynamix 3D Benchmark on the device. Note: though this is called a 3D benchmark, it does not use Direct3D or OpenGL ES. This is a benchmark using GAPI that tests Dynamix' own software rendered 3D engine. Furthermore, the benchmark itself uses a very simple 3D object. Do not try to make any assumptions whatsoever what this benchmark means to either software or hardware rendered 3D scenes on these devices, as all those assumptions would mean nothing.
You can find the application itself in Start --> Applications --> Games --> Dynamix 3D Benchmark. First, simply run it and let the benchmark do it's thing - this takes 100 seconds. At the end you will see a screen with the benchmark results. These were our results:
Average: 78 fps
Min: 19 fps
Max: 86 fps
Ofcourse, the important number here is the average FPS counter. Min and max are too easily influenced. Now, run the benchmark again, but when it starts, put your stylus to the touchscreen and start making circles with it, continue making the circles until the benchmark ends. When doing this, you will immediately see the FPS counter at the topleft of the screen drop. Again, these are our results:
Average: 32 fps
Min: 12 fps
Max: 76 fps
As you can see, the performance influence is enormous. Performance is halved due to use of the touchscreen. Next, we confirm that this is indeed a touchscreen issue. We do this by using My Mobiler. Install My Mobiler on your PC, and make sure your device is connected through USB (not Bluetooth) and ActiveSync. Use My Mobiler to connect to your device (it will install itself on the device through ActiveSync) and you can get your device's display on your PC screen. Start the benchmark again (through the screen on your PC) and let it run. Our results:
Average: 65 fps
Min: 51 fps
Max: 84 fps
Due to My Mobiler and the resources it takes capturing the screen and transmitting it to your PC, the FPS count is a bit lower, this is to be expected. Now we do the stylus-circling trick, but through My Mobiler. Start the benchmark and on the computer press down the left mouse button in your mobile device's screen and keep circling your mouse in that area, for as long as the benchmark runs. Our results:
Average: 62 fps
Min: 38 fps
Max: 80 fps
These results were a bit lower than the previous one, which can be explained through the inaccuracy (no two benchmarks are ever completely the same) and the added processing due to the mouse input. Now the trick with this is, that My Mobiler works by simulating the stylus input, by directly sending the relevant window messages to the foreground application. This means it completely bypasses the touchscreen hardware as well as software (the driver). As the issue is not apparent now, we have proven that the issue is indeed due to the touchscreen, and not due to any other subsystem.
A next step would be proving without a doubt that it is a software (driver) issue and not a hardware issue. This will require some ROM cooking and hacking to do, and we are still looking into it. It is however very unlikely that this a hardware issue.
Camera
The camera is a complicated item, as it depends on the camera hardware, the radio ROM, software drivers, and normal software. Most users will be able to easily verify that the camera application is very slow. Some devices' software seems to perform better than others, and quality and speed also seems to differ with different radio ROMs. The point remains that the camera is almost unusable, even with the fastest combination of HTC software and radio ROMs, and especially with the stock software from the HTC TyTN II. Ofcourse, having slow display drivers will negatively affect this issue, as the software will update a full screen image constantly. When this is slowed down due to the display drivers, the camera application is also slower. It's still doubtful, however, that this is an issue having to do with only the display drivers, there's likely a lot more involved.
GDI / DDI
It is very hard to verify wether this driver is hardware accelerated or not with absolute certainty, as it does talk to hardware in any case. However, seeing the system mentioned above is absent and the performance of this driver is abysmal, it is highly doubtful it is. Some dissembling and debugging can confirm this is not the case, but that is beyond the scope of this page.
DirectDraw
The DirectDraw driver provided on the devices we have tested is the default DirectDraw driver provided my Microsoft. One way to verify this is by dissecting the ROM from one of the devices. You will notice that ddraw.dll is system driver, not an OEM one. Note though that it is not necessary for the DirectDraw driver to use hardware acceleration directly to take advantage of a device's hardware acceleration. As of DirectX 8, which is the base for Mobile DirectX, DirectDraw has been integrated with Direct3D. DirectDraw's hardware acceleration is thus dependant on other drivers having hardware acceleration.
THREE OF THREE PAGE
Direct3D
There are several things that can clue you in on these drivers not being hardware accelerated.
First, on some devices Mobile Direct3D doesn't work at all (they are missing), which also means they are not hardware accelerated.
Second, the system noted in the Display driver background section above is absent.
Another good one is looking at the registry entries for the D3DM drivers, which can be found at HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\D3DM\Drivers. Here you will find two values, LocalHook and RemoteHook. On most devices, the LocalHook is set to htc_d3dm.dll and RemoteHook is left empty. LocalHook is used for drivers that load in the so-called user-space, and is generally only used for software rendering. This is because drivers loaded into user-space do not have direct hardware access. According to Microsoft, any driver set up this way may be assumed to be a software-only renderer. Note that it is not completely impossible for a hardware accelerated driver to be loaded this way, though it is certainly not advisable and we have never heard of such a case. RemoteHook is used for drivers that load in the kernel-space, and do have direct access to hardware, which is pretty much necessary for hardware acceleration. Also see this page on MSDN for more information.
Last but certainly not least, the D3DM driver found on the devices we have checked out, identified themselves as the "Microsoft D3DM Reference Driver". This is a software-only/skeleton D3DM driver provided by Microsoft to system builders, for debugging and development purposes. As far as we know, you aren't even allowed to spread this driver though, which makes this extra interesting.
OpenGL ES
There are two different interfaces available to make use of OpenGL ES, known as the Open GL ES Lite Profile and Common Profile. As the names suggest, one is the light version and the other is the normal version. These interfaces are provided by these two dynamic link libraries:
libgless_cl.dll - Lite Profile
libgless_cm.dll - Common Profile
On all devices we have tested, neither of these was available, meaning OpenGL ES is completely unsupported (and thus not hardware accelerated). Also see this page on Khronos for more information.
GAPI
We are not yet completely sure if this driver is hardware accelerated or not, however, as the complete driver system mentioned earlier is not present and none of the other drivers seem to have hardware acceleration, it would be fairly safe to assume that it isn't. The performance of this driver is also subpar, another good indicator that it's not using hardware accelerated functionality. A good indicator is tearing and flickering, this usually doesn't happen with a hardware accelerated driver (as seen with for example GAPI Benchmark 2.0). Looking at the driver itself, it does not seem to make use of any direct hardware calls.
Video playback
Video playback is dependant on several things. Slow display drivers will ofcourse limit the frame rate you get, and provide a far worse experience than fast display drivers. The decoding process also has something to do with it. The compression used in videos these days (almost always MPEG-4 or similar) is fairly complicated and does require a decent amount of processing power to decompress. The MSM7200/MSM7500 platform however also provides hardware acceleration for exactly this. Though a driver is present on these devices to assist in this (QTV), it does not seem to be used by any software. But even when this additional driver would not be present, movie playback should still be much faster than it currently is.
This has upset the owners of several of these type of devices. For this, a lot of people and I quote, "will never buy HTC products again cause this company doesn't support their devices". That means the TILT, on AT&T, sales will suffer cause HTC will not support current devices, but they want us to buy future devices with the update needed now for current devices. Why pay more money on future devices when HTC don't and will not support current devices now.
If there is anything, as in AT&T, can help push HTC to update the driver needed would be appreciated.
I have included some examples of issues posted on www.youtube.com that shows some examples:
The first video shows some 3d games with poor game play:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qL8uq4FtduY
The second video shows extreme poor frames per second while taking pictures with the camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjS9zz2bww
The last video shows explorer mode on 2 devices. On the left is the AT&T Tilt (Qualcomm 7200 400 Mhz Processor) and on the right is HTC Voyager made back in 2003 (Ti-Omap 132 Mhz Processor). As this video shows the lower processor out performs the bigger processor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qbaDLzOU_Y
IMO everyone should contact everyone.. I've already written HTC, AT&T.. I dont really like microsoft >.> but might bite the bullet and talk to them...
in some cases it's not what you say, or how you say it, but the amount of money we cost EVERYONE with numerous and volumes of e-mails that say nothing more then "Fix my tytn ii/kaiser/tilt" that can get the job done...
eventually (the carriers) and HTC will get tired of the amount of 'Fix my drivers' spam they get and try to resolve it.. why? not because it's the right thing to do, but because it costs them lots of money in labor hours to filter through the E-mails.
HTC US: [email protected]
HTC PR Dept: [email protected]
If you're overseas, instead of just e-mailing them directly, tie up both avenues.. Call HTC's local call center and ask them what the E-mail address is to write about the issue.
When I need something from my local carrier I hit them by E-mail, phone, and writing.. Why? The more money and time you cost them the faster they try to get you off their backs
It would be best if you would type it all into a nice word document, and then upload that document. It makes things easier.
DELETED this page see post one thru three
i put the whole e-mail up cause i had prob posting a doc file on here sorry
Probably would help us if we got Qualcomm to release the SDK for this instead. That's what's really stopping us from possibly rolling our own drivers.
Qualcomm has stated that they do not release the OEM drivers to any of their processors to the general public.
--James
Thanks.
I might contact AT&T again with the same email you posted.
Maybe we can get your email up on Digg and have thousands of people email it to HTC and AT&T?
I already have been emailing AT&T (no response at all) and HTC:
My latest response:
Thank you for emailing me a generic response.
Please note that I complained about the performance of Windows Mobile and NON-VIDEO applications.
This is not just about video playback!
My problem is the device is very sluggish, especially compared to much older devices. This includes the drawing of normal applications, like the Today screen and TomTom, taking pictures (almost undoable), responding to user input, answering a call, opening the start menu, as well as playing games and video playback. This is certainly not up to par with the device's specifications.
The devices' specifications state that they use the MSM7200 and MSM7500 chipsets. The MSM7200 and MSM7500's specifications state they have (impressive) hardware accelerated video capabilities on-board. As neither HTC nor AT&T have never stated these hardware accelerated video capabilities would not be available, I have (correctly) assumed they should be.
Even your own press releases (http://www.america.htc.com/products/tilt/default.html and http://www.htc.com/press_room/03-press-070905.htm) try to impress by stating these capabilities.
THAT IS MISLEADING ADVERTISING!
As to your response: provide drivers for the Qualcomm MSM7xxx based units to use the ATI Imageon video acceleration hardware!
I will make this really simple to you:
FIX THE PROBLEM OR I WILL RETURN THE DEVICE!!!
From: Max [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 10:22 AM
To: xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: RE: AT&T Tilt Video Inquiries
Hello ,
Thank you for your inquiry about the AT&T Tilt.
We know it is important for you to have all the information about your device. We regret to inform you that any software updates for your device must come through AT&T. HTC does not sell units to customers directly, the devices are re-branded, reprogrammed, and remodeled at the discretion of the cell phone carrier or service provider.
Regarding the video performance. In reference to the official press release in response to the driver inquiry issue, HTC does not offer exclusive or dedicated multimedia devices. The Qualcomm MSM7xxx based units do not use the ATI Imageon video acceleration hardware. Please verify that you have few if any programs running in the background, and do not have any conflicting third party software that may affect the use of the Windows Mobile 6 operating system.
If your issues persist, you may consider master resetting your device through the clear storage option under settings and system. Note this operation will remove your personal settings and return your device to the original OEM settings. All information on your SIM and Storage card will remain safe. You may also consider providing feedback to AT&T for requests regarding any support software or ROM updates where we may then host them on our web page for download.
Thank you for your patience and for contacting HTC. Please contact us again if you have any other inquiries.
HTC Technical Support
http://www.america.htc.com
http://www.htcwiki.com
http://www.cingular.com/support/
--- Original Message ---
From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Received: 2/9/08 7:41:52 PM EST
To: "'Pratheepan'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: issue with video playback
I appreciate the response and hope that a solution can be found quickly.
I would hate to have to return the device in exchange for a non HTC device.
• Your full name: xxxxx
• Mobile number: xxxxx
• IMEI: xxxxx
• P/N: xxxxx
• S/N: xxxxx
• ROM Version: 1.57.502.2 (stock AT&T ROM)
• Details of issue: Horribly slow graphics performance in Windows Mobile and many applications. My main issue is with the horribly slow performance of Windows Mobile on the device. The buildup if program screens is really slow. You click on opening the application and it takes 5-10 seconds where the current screen is frozen before the application window is slowly being built up. Opening menus takes FOREVER. These things all work LIGHTNING FAST in comparison on older devices running the same version of Windows Mobile. Scrolling any list, is slow and you can see new items being slowly drawn. Opening the phone “program” takes approx. 5 seconds. After dialing a phone number the whole device seems to freeze when the dial button is clicked before the “call window” is displayed. TomTom Navigator GPS Software runs jerky compared to how it performs on my old hw6515 which is almost 4 years old. In Internet explorer it takes forever for websites to be displayed and scrolling performance is HORRIBLE! Video and multimedia performance is also horribly slow compared to older devices.
Please provide a detailed account of the issue that you have experienced, which includes:
• Program used Windows Mobile / TomTom / Microsoft Reader / …
• Any other details that you believe to be relevant: My hw6515 as well as a friends HTC TyTN I (the model before the TyTN II) have NONE of these issues and perform much better/quicker"
For Video:
• Program used: Windows Media Player
• File size 350MB
• File format/encoding WMV
• Resolution 640x480
• Video scaling (50%, 100%, full screen, etc.): full screen.
I would also suggest posting something on AT&T's customer service forums!
Before I just posted something there were 0 (yes ZERO) posts about this issue there.
http://forums.wireless.att.com/cng/board?board.id=cingular
I also recommend posting negative reviews about this issue wherever you can.
I always use Amazon so I posted a negative review there.
(What makes me really angry are some of the reviews on there which IMO sound fishy as if they were written by HTC employees to counter some of the negative reviews.)
http://www.amazon.com/AT-T-Tilt-Sma...sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=wireless&qid=1202780428&sr=8-1
Just send emails to HTC's CEO and fill up his inbox, that'll piss him off.
[email protected]
I've emailed him twice and actually gotten responses. Let him know!
Tony
Anyone gave this a try yet?
http://gizmodo.com/you-can-download..._source=gizmodo_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
gsmyth said:
Anyone gave this a try yet?
http://gizmodo.com/you-can-download..._source=gizmodo_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, have no use for it...
I've looked into interfacing with GPIO in C# but found it to be lacking in many ways, the most important being speed. It also appears to be impossible to repurpose pins with ALT functions which Microsoft have fixed to SPI/I2C etc- you can't use them as basic GPIO pins which makes it impossible to use Windows 10 with many, many Pi accessories. I have successfully tested I2C, however, and SPI to an LCD display is next on my list.
As for straight up GPIO twiddling, my litmus test was multiplexing a 7 segment, 4 digit display - not exactly an uncommon or complex activity. I couldn't get a stable timing resolution any smaller than 500 microseconds, and at this point you're plugging decimal numbers into DotNet's TimeSpan.FromMilliseconds and things are getting silly.
I'll have to try it with a straight up loop to see what overhead the threaded timer introduces, but right now Visual Studio is refusing to deploy code at all- probably because I've got a shoddy networking setup to bridge the Windows IOT ethernet-only connection to my PC.
One thing is abundantly clear; if you're not a DotNet/C# developer then it isn't for you.
It's Microsoft, just saying.
gsmyth said:
Anyone gave this a try yet?
http://gizmodo.com/you-can-download..._source=gizmodo_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is just for developers. No desktop only app testing. Total waste of time.
gsmyth said:
Anyone gave this a try yet?
I'm also interested in finding out. Haven't tried it myself yet.
Anyone got it running?
How does it compare to 8.1?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@wodeh: what do you recommend to use in place of Windows 10 ? How does it compare to linux+python (with RPi-gpio) ?
I never used my RPi for this kind of things, I'm just curious.
@davcri91 it depends what you're familiar with- if you already know C#, use Windows and are familiar with Visual Studio then it will certainly get you off to a good start. Right now, though, support for Pi add-ons in Windows 10 is going to be all but non-existent so it's not the best all-round experience.
Raspbian, the official OS, grants you much more flexibility- you can choose to use Python, Ruby, Node JS, PHP, C, Go or really whatever you fancy. All the current documentation and software support is focussed on this OS, so Pi add-ons- especially more complicated things like our Unicorn HAT or the Pi DAC+- will work.
As for performance, I've yet to try a better test since I couldn't get Visual Studio to upload code to my Pi anymore and didn't want to waste any more time with it. My initial experimentation suggested that C# is tremendously slow at toggling an IO pin though, I couldn't even reasonably multiplex a 4-digit, 7-segment display whereas in Raspbian I can clock out serial data to a 128x64 pixel LCD at 200FPS.
Someone with a more recent working knowledge of C# ( mine is about 10 years out of date ) could probably do somewhat better... I'd hope.
The GUI "Universal App" stuff seems to be a talking point for Windows IoT but this has absolutely no utility in any setup that doesn't have a screen. My preferred setup for Raspberry Pi UIs is HTML/CSS with a RESTful or Web Sockets API- that way I can use my phone, my laptop, or whatever screen/device is handy.
So to summarise:
Windows IoT:
* Targeted at existing C# developers
* Dev-environment with step debugging and all the trimmings
* GUI framework... I think... for better or worse
* Slow to build and deploy
* Slow IO, it seems
* Impossible to use pins reserved for I2C/SPI as general purpose IO, breaking any add-ons that rely on this
Raspbian:
* Complete and total free for all- could probably even use C# with Mono
* Whatever Dev environment you can cobble together.. it'll probably be Sublime Text on your computer plus SCP or VIM/NANO/IDLE
* No standard framework for doing anything, which is a shame- there needs to be an official stance + docs on App/Game dev for the Pi
* You can just run Interactive Python and toggle GPIO pins on and off instantly with commands- fast deployment/test/fail cycle since you're already *on* the device
* IO pins will toggle at 20 Megahertz using C, although the resulting signal will be useless mush
* You can re-assign IO pins as you see fit- SPI and I2C can be regular GPIO, and you can use ALT functions to move some things around
This is a totally top-of-my-head summary of the strengths/weaknesses of each. It's an apples to oranges comparison, though!
You made a really great post, thank you wodeh
For now I think I'll stick to linux because I'm used to Python.