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hi all, i have been looking and asking questions all mornin on how to upgrade to wm5, so i downloaded needed files, hard reset my xdaIIs and run rom, with the baupgrade rom i get error 103 and with the maupgrade it runs for 20 secounds or so, says its comlete and to do another hard reset, and when i have done this nothin is different, please tell me where i am going wrong,
My device info is
rom version 1.40.00 WWE
protocol version 1337.42
Extrom 1.40.237 WWE
I take it my xda is still standard?
Thanks
Alan
wiki
pls read wiki
you need to formate the device
camera+recoder button thing
i did exactly that and had usb come up on screen but still no joy.
Cheers
hey
regarding the the maupgradeutnoid.exe, when your using it for the vry first time, you have to disable activesync first, put your device into bottloader mode, and put it ine the cradle... you could here a sound, wait till the device would be recognize and wait till a popup message telling you that the new device installed is ready to use and that's the time where you run the maupgradeutnoid.exe otherwise you'll keep on just getting that message that the upgarde is finished, well actually nothing has happened.
since, its your first time attempt of upgrading to wm5, you can use baupgrade.exe but be sure you have set the corect operator for your device. to know what is your operator info, just transfer the getdeviceinfo.exe to your device and run it, this .exe will generate devicedata.txt found in the windows directory of your device. tranfer it to your pc and read it from there, in my case I have an imate, my operator is CDL_01, remember this coz you will neede this when your upgrading to wm5.
in any rom that you can download in this site, there is an included bat file, setoperator.bat, and enter you operator info, after that your ready to run baupgradeut.exe with no problem... read the wiki for better understanding.. alwaysssssssssss read..............
Was updating my dads SPV M700 to WM6 and have hit a problem ....
The rom image updated ok, and I used AX3L's 2.0.8.
Unfortunately during the GSM update the software crashed, and froze at 51%. I had to re-boot and now I can't use the phone.
When I re-set the phone it says No GSM at the HTC screen and then stops loading at the WM6 front page.
I can get into the Bootloader by pressing the Power/Camera/Reset buttons, but when I try to re-flash GSM is says error 270, corrupt image. I have tried several files with no luck.
I would appreciate a hand ..... My dad is going to kill me
Thanks
gaz_az
try press
power button + camera + reset
to enter usb mode
then reflash the radio again.
hope this works
You can try 2 other things!
Download the Radio ROM again- you may have had a downlaod glitch in the 1st one. V1.38 is the best one to try.
Download and install the offical HTC WM5 ROM- this should be a full ROM including Radio, so sometimes completes more effectively. If you are brave, you can them retry the WM6 flash!
since bricking a hermes i stopped taking chances doing rom upgrades via usb..
the method that is most reliable ad safe is... via SD card
extract RUU_signed file from the upgrade pack (use winrar) and then copy it to the root of a blank sd (mini or micro etc) and rename to TRINIMG.nbh ..enter bootloader and follow the steps.. its fast and most reliable
Ok - Thanks for the help, but no luck so far. I have tried the suggestions above !
Heres what I have done ...
Hard reset - no change
Tried to re-flash with WM6 and WM5 cooked roms, but an error comes up saying the images are corrupt. This happens with any image I try.
I have also tried a legit HTC WM5 rom upgrade image, but it doesn't work either. It gives an error at 1% saying invalid device ID.
What I can do it get into the standard bootloader screen, which shows I have a USB connection when plugged in. If I allow the phone to boot up it stops at the WM6.0 picture. It won't go far enough to allow me to get an activesync connection.
ANy more adivice would be greatly appreciated !
gaz_az
Next thing then, is to try and obtain a downloaded Orange M700 ROM- there are a few links hereabouts.
For some reason, your device seems to want only its home ROM. If that fails there are other methods before sending back to Orange!
I downloaded an Orange rom, but still no luck. It gets to 1% again, then says there is a error/corrupt image file. Same as any of other cooked images !
What next ??
well if you were my son, i would advice you,to buy a plane ticket for somewhere very far,leave the house while i sleep,and pray every day you have left in your life,for not find you on my way
uhm, question about boot loader and flash on boot loader mode.
I copy file TRINIMG.nbh to root card mini SD, and i can't go as you say...
always Tri colors screen....
gaz_az said:
I downloaded an Orange rom, but still no luck. It gets to 1% again, then says there is a error/corrupt image file. Same as any of other cooked images !
What next ??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are running out of options
Your choices now are to go further down the 'fiddling' route, or give up and return the phone to Orange for repair. At least if its is stuck in bootloader, they may not spot that you have been meddling
If you want to play more, there are very few Trinity specific fixes, but possibly some of the questions/answers in the Hermes WiKi may help, though the Bootloader versions etc won't be relevant.
[Edit: When you are in Bootloader mode, what version numbers are showing on the screen?]
is it so wrong i was smiling when i read this.
does make me wonder if u told ur dad what u were going to do or whether u were trying to be cocky by giving him a better phone without him knowing.
all i can say is, UNLUCKY !
I must say things are looking bad - I think it would take an original orange SPV rom if I could get one. Been to the orange website, but no luck !! Anyone know if orange released one ??
Been looking at the Hermes unbrick thread. Is there a way to enter KITL debug mode in the trinity ??
G
P.S. Dad knew I was upgrading the phone, already did it once for him and it went ok. No sure he knew I could acutually kill it
No Orange haven't released an official rom.
Well Orange UK haven't Orange FR have, so unless he speaks and reads french that's not an option.
Well, French or not, you've probably got nothing to lose by trying to load the official French ROM
Go Here and click the Mise-a-jour link (which is French for ROM) and it will open a zip file download without the need to verify the IMEI number.
If that doesn't work, nothing will! If it does load, you will at least have a working phone, even if it is in French, and you can go back over the ROM update again, remembering to apply the SPL Bootloader first!
Still "not allow", i don't know what the hell Orange was doing with P3600?
Lock everything?........it's suck !!!
No luck with the French ROM. Same thing gives an error message about wrong device ID.
I am one step from chucking it in the bin. Any more last minute ideas ??
erh, bizzard,i can't use "wtty.exe" to view my CID ...
i tape "info 2"and it always appear
Cmd>info 2
CID: Wait interpreter timeout
HTCSF kEØ(HTCE
Cmd>
...............................
Someone have issue for that?
If i can view CID code,i think i can find the right ROM to re-vivre...all suck !!!
erh, hey guy, your boot loader is english or french? sorry if it's the most stupid question of the day......i think french device use french boot loader,right?
i mean, when screen tri-color appear, use mini SD card to flash ROM, the language it apprear itself is english or french.
p/s : i was telephone to the HTC center, and they say as usual, send it to the center repair.
For french user address is : be sure u have enough garanty which required.
send them and make them crazy.....
CIRMA ELECTRONIQUE
9A14 CHEMIN DE BARATEAU
ZONE INDUSTRIEL DE LA LANDE
33451 SAINT Loubès
If you can figure out how to compile splxploit, you can fix this, see
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=308691
thank anyway,i will try it before tomorrow,cause i will send them my device for repair.
hi, i've a big problem, i've upgraded my phone today, because it was a mda3 german locked on t-mobile. but the only way to make the upgrade work was not to upgrade radio, so i didn't put it. so, now the phone has been updated in my language, but when i power on it, it says no gsm. can someone say how can i do please!
Which rom did you flash? What is written after letter R while doing a soft reset?
no r
it does not appear anything, the only thing is that
NO GSM
D 5108.a771la
are you sure it's not a CDMA phone? ( j/k)
try reflashing the old rom. and see if it will go back.
if not...
then you are forced to flash the radio rom to a new version
because as you say it cant detect any if you flashed with the new rom.
but i dont see any relevance to the carrier when upgrading the radios, it's still quadband.
and you're stil using the SAME sim card.
hi, i still cannot reflash the radio of my phone, anyone can help me it always says "NO GSM" !!! PLEASE, HELP ME!!!!
please, tell me also if there is a way to format the memory where is installed the radio. thanks
jonnymix said:
hi, i still cannot reflash the radio of my phone, anyone can help me it always says "NO GSM" !!! PLEASE, HELP ME!!!!
please, tell me also if there is a way to format the memory where is installed the radio. thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As far as I know, the only way to 'format the radio stack' is to flash it with a new radio version.
Your original post is too vague as well.
You have a MDA III from T-Mo, that would make it a GSM = good
"only way to make the upgrade work was not to upgrade radio" - This doesn't make sense as the radio ROM is a separate flash from the OS ROM, the two are not part of the same flash code.
You also 'upgraded' your phone. From what to what? We need to know where and what ROM you flashed the phone to and from.
As for the screen showing NO GSM, is this after power cycling the phone by removing the battery? There is a know bug with WM5 and above where the GSM radio stack is not loaded on boot after a power cycle. The workaround is to soft reset the phone after it shows NO GSM.
(Huh, I'm a senior member now? Wonder when/how that happened... )
hi, thank you for answer.
i dont exactly know which os and radio rom were originally, i bought it original but used and the os was modded by t-mobile in deutch. i upgraded it to wm5 a771la ver 5.1.0.8 and the radio 1.15. then the os worked properly but it says no gsm. i know the bug you said me, because i have it on an another mda III of my brother, there after a soft reset i can solve this problem but it says NO RADIO on two lines, there, there is only one NO GMS . i know that the two roms are in two different flash memories infact i can flash and re-flash the os but when i try to flash the radio an error occurs. please, let make me know if these information can help you to solve my problem. thanks!
jonnymix said:
i know that the two roms are in two different flash memories infact i can flash and re-flash the os but when i try to flash the radio an error occurs. please, let make me know if these information can help you to solve my problem. thanks!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And what error is appearing? I didn't see it in your original post.
Personally, I'd try this:
Remove the SIM and any SD cards.
Make sure the battery is fully charged.
Put the phone into boot loader mode
Plug it into a XP (Not Vista) machine
Check to see if the OS recognizes the phone. I believe it will show up as some kind of USB device, not a Generic RNDIS device (I don't have my angel handy to check this)
Then run the radio flash program.
jdc said:
And what error is appearing? I didn't see it in your original post.
Personally, I'd try this:
Remove the SIM and any SD cards.
Make sure the battery is fully charged.
Put the phone into boot loader mode
Plug it into a XP (Not Vista) machine
Check to see if the OS recognizes the phone. I believe it will show up as some kind of USB device, not a Generic RNDIS device (I don't have my angel handy to check this)
Then run the radio flash program.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i also have the same problem...how to resolve?upgrade helmi 5.6 rom... NO GSM. phone funtion failed.
sorry if this post seems to be a repeat , but i tried the search option and the results were not fruitful
a friend of mine , while trying to upgrade to a TNT ROM , didn't HardSPLed the device first , and successfully changed the ROM of the device , now it is stuck on the blue screen with SPL and IPL versions , and no response . for some reason , the device can go to bootloader mode , but it can not be reflashed , and it does not respond to a hard reset command.
please advise on what to do
regards
When it is in the bootloader mode, and connected via USB, is there a little USB icon in the bottom left? If so, simply flash your phones carrier ROM and all should be fine with it again. You can then apply HardSPL and flash to the TNT or any other ROM that you want to. Is your device a G3 or G4 by the way? What are the numbers after IPL and SPL?
well my friend says that the USB icon is visible there , and the device was indeed a G4. the thing is , what exactly should he do , in order to flash the ROM , since non of imate roms work for it. should he use any special software?
i'll greatly appreciate your help
Is he using Vista or XP?
he is using Windows XP , could it be the PC OS that caused interference?
Well, only if it is Vista does it really matter. He needs to get ahold of an original carrier ROM, such as the O2, or T-Mobile one and flash it to his phone, then HardSPL it, then upgrade to 6 or 6.1.
Download and flash Wizard_love Rom,it might do the trick,then HardSPL and upgrade to any wm6 or 6.1 rom.
What exact error it gives while flashing imate official rom ?
well the wizard has been an imate ,and it was flashed with an Original imate ROM already , but no success , any other suggestions?
thanks again
error [294]invalid vendor ID :
This Update Utility can not be used for your PDA phone.Please check your update utility.
here is the picture
http://i35.tinypic.com/29v03rl.jpg
and could you please give a link to the Love ROM?
thanks
Download wizard_love Rom from this link:-
http://rapidshare.com/files/17792050/Wizard_Love_2.26.10.2_WWE_Novii_CF2.rar
well he first got this error while upgrading
http://i33.tinypic.com/ivjz8o.jpg
then he managed to upgrade , but had the very first screen after ugprading on PPC screen , and nothing happens
it also gives a failure message while trying to manually Hard Reset after upgrade
please advise on what to do next
greatest appreciations
No SD Upgrade even tough... MTTY hahahaha
king_dani said:
well he first got this error while upgrading
http://i33.tinypic.com/ivjz8o.jpg
then he managed to upgrade , but had the very first screen after ugprading on PPC screen , and nothing happens
it also gives a failure message while trying to manually Hard Reset after upgrade
please advise on what to do next
greatest appreciations
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It seems you need to follow the drugstore MiniSD upgrade but...
I guess you dont have another wizard to make a bacuk up... so wait a minute...
You don have hardspled yopur device...!!!
HAHAHAHA forget it!mmmm
Maybe mtty... folow mi signature maybe works
See you There Men!!!!
Need a favours over here. Recently, i bricked my trinity. P3600 more precisely Dopod D810 (i flashed wrong ROM -> Unpacking cooked rom for trinity but i merge it with -Hermes cmd in NBMerge! houh... so stupid! ). Soo... just not what i expected, Rom flashing stop on half, SR my trin and tada.... 3Color screen bootloader popup! haaarggg, i try flashing another rom using any rom that has same CID *official or cooked rom* (some are 100% thru, but someother not) but like usual it won't start the windows (just blank/black screen with green led[ always on!) Never been like this before! Have been flashing several times using any cooked rom by great chef on trinity but this time! :doh: damn it! my bad.
i found solution on the forum *Unbricking Trinity Stuck on Bootloader* but since my usb port can't be detected on my vista/xp machine, whether i disable AS and changed my usb cable it doesnt work at all, on mtty too! so i can't use that utility. i try run install sspl olipro 1.3 but it never changed my spl at all. now i can't use my trin at all cuz allready dead.
btw this is the info on trin 3color screen bootloader:
IPL 1.00
SPL 3.20 OLIPRO
anysolution for bringing back my trinity from the death? maybe a tools/utility to unbrick trinity from SD or something like that, which not involved any pc connection, without bring this devices to htc center of course.
I hope any expertise on this forum would helped me sort out this probs.
Sorry for my english and thanks for reading my post.
Read this :http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=308691 download splxploit-windows.zip (935.1 KB, 7619 views) put phone in bootloader run splxploit when bootloader change
After this download full rom here is link:http://rapidshare.com/files/21174752/RUU_Trinity_HTC_WWE_1.15.405.5_6275_1.20.00.11_12201_Ship.exe
Then flash full rom bat do not disconnect usb cable in any step.
Before use any step disable active sync.
Usb are dead
Gsmhacks thanks for ure reply. I have tried that one, and lot read ing on wiki. But since i cant use the usb i cant use that splexploit whether on live linuxcd, or .Net version even win version. The usb port cant be opened . I think i broke the usb pin. From the beginning everytime i flashed my trin i never used ruu utility, i always do the sd card method and that is the best and easiest method and it works for me.
I just curious perhaps can anyone or is there any utility to unbrick trin via sd card. I knew a lot a people has bring their trinity life from dead by using htc stackflow splexploit. I hope that was work for me too! Too bad my usb are dead. Damn!
Here what you need bat only work if you have hard spl
If you install hard spl before brick trinity you can use SD CARD to flash trinity. YOu need to formate sd card to FAT32 with Card Reader donwload full rom here is link: http://rapidshare.com/files/21174752/RUU_Trinity_HTC_WWE_1.15.405.5_6275_1.20.00.11_12201_Ship.exe
then extract and file RUU_Signed.nbh rename to TRINIMG.nbh and copy it to the root folder of your miniSD card.
Here is full instruction again also first format sd card to FAT32 !!!! VERY IMORTANT to format sd card to FAT32 or all other step will not work THEN:
1. Extract the .NBH file from your prefered ROM upgrade: In windows use winrar (right click) to extract the contents of the exe file. In Linux / MacOS use cabextract (or you can also use winrar via wine).
2. Rename the .NBH file to TRINIMG.nbh and copy it to the root folder of your miniSD card.
3. With miniSD card inserted on the phone, start the bootloader (hold Power button on right side and Camera button at same time and stick with stylus in RESET on bottom).
4. You should see the screen pictured on the left, confirm flashing on screen by pressing the power button.
5. Flashing might hang after some time but this is normal. Just wait. Complete flash takes about 30 minutes, so check your battery or connect to charger before the flashing process starts.
6. When flashing completes soft-reset your device.
and you will flash and unbrick trinity bat this only work if you install before this hard spl i mean cid unlock trinity. if not you must fix usb port.
That will work? I hope so
Ok then i'll try flashing using that rom. Oo, i have install hardspl btw and so far flashing using sdcard method no probs. But after i bricked my trin flashing doesnt smooth like be4. Always gave me error 0018003 update fail on the halfway, i guess because i have bad nand on trin and probably cuz cooked rom.
Can u give me another link, perhaps on xda ftp. rapids so slow 4 me. Btw i have download dopodasiawwe official rom on xda ftp *twice but still when i tried to run the package it gave me corrupt archive integrity fail w!f.
Thanks gsmhackerns, i downloading the package now!
Perhaps you can find a way to make a goldcard for Trinity?
See http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=437996
That's what i looking for! Thanks.
Humm, superb. Yay, great! Thank you stepw. Even its for elf with a little mod i hope this will work. Once again thank you.
Stepw, i have tried making the gold card, everything went ok. I have temp. cid *supercid* but the probs now is i can't download http://rapidshare.com/files/21174752/RUU_Trinity_HTC_WWE_1.15.405.5_6275_1.20.00.11_12201_Ship.execan someone uploaded to somewhere else. Rapidshare crap! perhaps on xda ftp.
thanks!
goldcard cannot help in such a situation.
I can however make an SSPL that loads off SD card - just like for kaiser you will be able to use it because you are already on hardspl.
then that will allow you to flash stock SPL.
PM me and send your MSN address, so we can test it out. if it works i'll post it in this thread too in case others get stuck also
cmonex said:
goldcard cannot help in such a situation.
I can however make an SSPL that loads off SD card - just like for kaiser you will be able to use it because you are already on hardspl.
then that will allow you to flash stock SPL.
PM me and send your MSN address, so we can test it out. if it works i'll post it in this thread too in case others get stuck also
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed. Youre right cmonex, it doesnt make any difference at all 4 my trin. After several tried using and making goldcard 4 trin, finally i made working goldcard4trin, but gosh it still stuck when i tried to update the os (update os fail) humm anyone.
Sorry for wasting your time with Goldcard, I have overlooked that you have a hard spl on your Trinity. In this case goldcard doesn't make a lot of difference.
And there's no trindiag.nb to the best of my knowledge that could be used instead of SSPL cmonex is suggesting to run from SD.
Back to the topic, sounds like you have some "bad" blocks in flash and OS can't be flashed. Bad blocks can be reset with "task 2a" command, see this thread for more details:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=330496
The question is how to run it without USB and I don't have an answer for you
Some people have previously mentioned they managed to flash smaller OS images when larger images failed, perhaps if you try flashing some minimal vanilla ROM, it will succeed?
Bad NAND, Yup!
Ya... as i mention before yup i do have bad nand block on my devices. Using manila rom with smaller img size the flash went 'OK'. But it doesn't boot at all infact just black screen with green led on.
Okay the only solution probably use mtty and do task 2a if i'm not mistaken. But like you said "The problem is the USB port". I think the port is ok cuz i already tested it connecting my usb to my trin without inserting the battery and the red led *magenta* is on. humm, weird!
But if something can make it working without involving any pc connection it would be a great achievement. hahah! well i supposed i have to put my trin on bunker before someone can make it happens
I asked SEA in my country and they recommend me to changed the machine it self and they charge me around US $160 ho...ho.. too "wideeeeee" for college boy like me
Same problem, i flashed the rom
RUU_Trinity_DOPODASIA_WWE_3.00.707.18_6275_1.46.30.11_108_Ship
and after that i tried to flash a new radio!
power+cam and the cell phone did not show usb, then i used sspl to rum the radio but it locked at 0%
after that it is stucked at bootloader screen
ipl 1.0
spl 3.20 .....
but no usb and no sd card !!
did i lost the cell phone?
there is no jtag ou something like that ?
so now... you still want this SSPL? i'm thinking of patching one up to automatically run task 2a maybe. or just restore stock spl for warranty service if that's what you have in mind. but you didn't really reply to that offer?
Please if you could build a sspl for this condition it would be enough because once sspl i can run a new ruu with hard-spl again ! the problem i believe was caused becaus this original rom's have a spl.nb inside , in the screen we read teh information about the olipro spl but i thing teh original spl.nb messed up the hard spl!
There is another problem, i formated to fat32 my card and put a TRINIMG.nbh of a rom inside and he did nothing!! same card in elf with ELFIMG.nbh of a rom runs great!!
It means that this spl of mine will not flash from card? goldcar would help?
and cant i flash something in serial ? like a jtag or something?
Anyhelp will be more than apreciated!
sorry the bad english
Needed!
Cmonex, sorry for longtime haven't seeing this thread again. okay i really need your help btw if you willing to help me. The spl your talking about perhaps can sort out the probs (i hope) at least we tried. as for task2a cmd to clear the bad nand block is none usefull for me since usb conn. are definitely drop dead.
how about patch the SSPL to do task2a cmd to solve the bad NAND block first.
dinizbruno said:
Please if you could build a sspl for this condition it would be enough because once sspl i can run a new ruu with hard-spl again ! the problem i believe was caused becaus this original rom's have a spl.nb inside , in the screen we read teh information about the olipro spl but i thing teh original spl.nb messed up the hard spl!
There is another problem, i formated to fat32 my card and put a TRINIMG.nbh of a rom inside and he did nothing!! same card in elf with ELFIMG.nbh of a rom runs great!!
It means that this spl of mine will not flash from card? goldcar would help?
and cant i flash something in serial ? like a jtag or something?
Anyhelp will be more than apreciated!
sorry the bad english
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no usb, no sd, no chance sorry. jtag it or get it serviced or get another phone.
as for jtag, hermes jtag has been worked out by scholbert. trinity is probably the same, but you will have to find the pins. the rest of the process will be the same.
Dear all,
I can't go to bootloader screen ..fff before I had on my trinity faman 4.03 rom and I would change with the NiAX rom... after 3% restart and I think that my phone brick and my phone stay on htc screen fff please help
I have windows vista and even if i follow all steps pfff it changes nothing...after hard reset ...fff please help ...
I think my trinity is out :-(????????????????????????
Please help,
The O.S is more important to these operations than can be stressed - for a 99% safe flash Win XP is your best bet , I have had nothing but error 260,270 halfway flashed roms and usb faults running on vista and since I had my original bricking episode - NOTHING , I repeat NOTHING including genuine roms has flashed without a recovery or at least without doing something strange in the process - SPLXPLOIT has been a saviour here , without it I would've been lost.
Cant the O.P simply use another machine to test out the USB theory ?
ALIVE AGAINnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!
My p3600 was stucked att bootloader, and wont give "usb" and do not read TINIMG.NBH (tried on elf with ELFIMG.nbh and the card was great)!
I did a golcard with the post on elf about it and the cell with the gold card inside was the same, no trinimg.nbh and no usb.............
BUT..............
with the goldcard inside, turned OFF, i placed it on the usb cable off the pc and the device booted to the bootloader screen, but this time he got "USB" , before flashing anything i removed the card , and putted switched off in the usb, booted with "serial" with card and pressing power and then placing usb still "serial" message!
I putted the card, did not switched on , placed on the usb and waited for it to boot for it self , and for my surprise "usb".
Flashed stock rom, and it booted nice!!!
Please try!
saved my day!
sidekraouf95 said:
Dear all,
I can't go to bootloader screen ..fff before I had on my trinity faman 4.03 rom and I would change with the NiAX rom... after 3% restart and I think that my phone brick and my phone stay on htc screen fff please help
I have windows vista and even if i follow all steps pfff it changes nothing...after hard reset ...fff please help ...
I think my trinity is out :-(????????????????????????
Please help,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to know how to repair my phone please... nobody can explain precisely how to put my phone on bootloader using my sd card directly from my computer under vista...???