Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Too many people are trying to take the easy road and post a new thread on a subject or idea, usually asking a question about something that has already been answered instead of doing a simple search!
I've been a member here for a couple years now and haven't needed to post very much because, if you take the time, the information is out there. 99.9% of the time, you aren't the first person to ask a question, have a problem, or hit a wall.
If you're having trouble doing something that was posted in a thread, POST YOUR QUESTION IN THAT THREAD!!
It seems as though there are a lot of newbies who are anxious to root their Inc, which is fine: If you pay attention, read the instructions and most of the thread before you begin, and follow them to a T . Every time I have a problem either rooting or installing a ROM or something else, I am the one who did something wrong.
Some of you are probably new to the Thread concept, which is also fine. It's very frustrating getting used to how they work, and learning the "right" way to do things- but trust me, it's worth it.
Posting a new thread is like standing on a chair in the middle of a crowded room and screaming out a question. If your in the wrong room (i.e. wrong section), people are going to be upset. If the question was already answered by another group (i.e. another forum), people are also going to be upset. If you aren't sure if you should start a new thread, you probably shouldn't.
Take the time and READ THE RULES! Here they are if you don't know where to find them:
New forum rules, please read!
1. Search before posting.
Use one of our search functions before posting, whether you have a question or something new to share, it's very likely someone already asked that question or shared that news.
2. Member conduct.
2.1 Language: XDA is a worldwide community. As a result what is ‘ok’ to say in your part of the world may not be ok in someone else’s part of the world. Please think about who is reading what you write. Keep in mind that what you think of as acceptable use of language may not be acceptable to others. Conversely, while reading member posts, remember that word you find offensive may not be to the writer. Tolerance is a two way street.
2.2 Nudity: XDA is used by people of all ages, including minors. It's not acceptable to post nude/pornographic imagery, which includes exposure of the male or female genitalia or of female breasts.
2.3 Flaming: XDA was founded as a group of people sharing information about certain mobile phones. Sharing does not involve virtual yelling (flaming) it does involve working together to solve problems in an environment of mutual respect and understanding. Losing your temper and flaming another member, or group of members, is not acceptable behavior.
2.4 Personal attacks, racial, political and/or religious discussions: XDA is a discussion forum about certain mobile phones. Mobile phones are not racial, political, religious or personally offensive, therefore none of these types of discussions are permitted on XDA.
2.5 New Members: Treat new members the way you would have liked to have been treated when you were a new member. Provide the new members with guidance, advice and instruction always with respect and courtesy.
2.6 All members are expected to read and adhere to the XDA rules.
3. Post only using a clear subject and message.
You're most likely to receive a helpful answer to your question if you use a short subject title that describes your problem and a message that explains in detail what your problem is and what you've tried to solve it.
4. Use the English language.
We understand that with all the different nationalities not everyone speaks English well, but please try. If you're really unable to post in English use an online translator, You're free to include your original message in your own language below the English translation.
5. Post a message only once.
As a large forum we don't need unnecessary clutter, You're free to edit your message as you like, so if you do not receive an answer revisit your message and see if you can describe your problem better. Not everyone is online at the same time, it might take a while before you receive an answer.
6. Do not post warez.
If a piece of software requires you to pay to use it, either pay or find your cracks and serials somewhere else. We do not accept warez nor do we permit any member to promote or describe ways in which Warez, cracks, serial codes or other means of avoiding payment, can be obtained.
7. Do not spam.
If you wish to advertise a product, contact us we provide ads. But do not post it in the forums, it will be removed and you're likely to receive a ban.
You are however allowed to sell used goods like your own device, parts of your device or accessories for your device in the marketplace forum, please read the rules there before posting. (This rule includes signatures, if you use a signature it will appear in your post)
8. Donations.
We appreciate all donations to xda-developers.com, it keeps our forum online and well maintained. As a user you're allowed to ask for donations in your signature as a thank you for your hard work. However donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for.
9. Don't get us in trouble.
Don't post copyrighted materials or do other things that will obviously lead to legal trouble. If you wouldn't do it on your own homepage, you probably don't want to do it here either. This does not mean we agree with everything the software piracy lobby try to impose on us, it simply means you cannot break any laws here, since we'll end up dealing with legal hassle caused by you. Please use common sense: respect the forum, its users, and those that write great code.
10. Help others if you can.
If you see posts from others where you can help out, please do. This place exists because people are helping each other, and even if you are relatively new to the matter, there's probably already quite a few people newer than you that would benefit from what you've learned. Don't be shy.
11. Don’t post with the intent on selling something.
As an elaboration to rule number 7, don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. If you are the proprietor of a for-pay product or service, you may use XDA to get feedback, provide beta access, or offer support on the product, but you may not make any posts with the primary intent of selling. This includes posting press releases, announcements, or links to downloads for trial software. The only exception to this is when you’re posting an exclusive release to XDA.
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So instead of starting a new thread like "How do I.." or "Where do I" or "Why can't I..." Do a search of the threads, Google it, or even hop on over to PPC Geeks, Trust me- you'll find the answers you're looking for.
BTW - Thanks to Mikey1022 for moderating
+100000000000000000000000
I wish people had to read this before they could post new threads. This forum seems to be worse than most of the other android forums on xda... not sure why.
Everyone who disagrees with this should check out the nexus one forum to get an idea of how lax things are here.
You better watch it. Some people may take offense to this. people also have to be aware when they do make a new thread that it is in the correct section. Too many questions are being posted in Development instead of General. Let's keep the sections on topic so people can find what they came looking for.
I agree, but I can see the other side as well.
The "Root process" thread is up to 108 pages. Sure, searching helps, but you are still poring over pages and pages of forums for hours. I kind of learned that this was the buy-in from my WinMo days, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.
One advantage to sticking to existing threads, however, is that people who are successful will probably post back to that thread, with any variations they used, whereas they are less likely to post to a new thread.
Calibob2001 said:
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Too many people are trying to take the easy road and post a new thread on a subject or idea, usually asking a question about something that has already been answered instead of doing a simple search!
I've been a member here for a couple years now and haven't needed to post very much because, if you take the time, the information is out there. 99.9% of the time, you aren't the first person to ask a question, have a problem, or hit a wall.
If you're having trouble doing something that was posted in a thread, POST YOUR QUESTION IN THAT THREAD!!
It seems as though there are a lot of newbies who are anxious to root their Inc, which is fine: If you pay attention, read the instructions and most of the thread before you begin, and follow them to a T . Every time I have a problem either rooting or installing a ROM or something else, I am the one who did something wrong.
Some of you are probably new to the Thread concept, which is also fine. It's very frustrating getting used to how they work, and learning the "right" way to do things- but trust me, it's worth it.
Posting a new thread is like standing on a chair in the middle of a crowded room and screaming out a question. If your in the wrong room (i.e. wrong section), people are going to be upset. If the question was already answered by another group (i.e. another forum), people are also going to be upset. If you aren't sure if you should start a new thread, you probably shouldn't.
Take the time and READ THE RULES! Here they are if you don't know where to find them:
So instead of starting a new thread like "How do I.." or "Where do I" or "Why can't I..." Do a search of the threads, Google it, or even hop on over to PPC Geeks, Trust me- you'll find the answers you're looking for.
BTW - Thanks to Mikey1022 for moderating
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
Calibob2001 said:
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You know they won't. The ones who post these repeated topics are the ones who freak out when they're lost, post a topic, and hit refresh all day instead of looking for the answer. The only ones who actually read this are the ones already pissed off about it.
barry1685 said:
How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL, I didn't even read it. Just scrolled to through the comments
bluetooth_decay said:
I agree, but I can see the other side as well.
The "Root process" thread is up to 108 pages. Sure, searching helps, but you are still poring over pages and pages of forums for hours. I kind of learned that this was the buy-in from my WinMo days, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.
One advantage to sticking to existing threads, however, is that people who are successful will probably post back to that thread, with any variations they used, whereas they are less likely to post to a new thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are so many pages of topics because of the issue that is being described. There is a very handy function called "search" that, while not perfect, at least narrows results down for you. You can search within a Section, Topic or down to a single thread for key words.
Odds are, if you are on here you know how to navigate the web. If you can't perform a basic search in a topic or thread then please don't try to root your phone or follow any instructions to change, modify or "hack" anything.
As was brought out by [OP], if you WANT to do something that you think will be useful to you, read up on it. If you do run into an issue, search the key word of your issue. Entering "boot loop", "frozen", "Error message 123" will return something to help you find your answer. Odds are, you are not alone and, if you find you are alone, return to the thread where you were following instructions to do whatever it was you want to do and post a reply describing your issues. [OP] or others who are familiar with the process will help. Patience is a must.
barry1685 said:
How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Far too long than I care to admit - My first draft was rather angry and the overtone has calmed quite a bit...
And even if ONE newbie reads it and gleans even a whisper of insight as to how to operate the forums, then I have been 100% successful- even if 1% of those who read it take this to heart, at this point, that's still 2 fewer Threads the moderators have to close down...
Trust me, no matter what you try to do, you cannot stop people from reposting over and over.
Trust me, no matter what forum I'm at, it's the same thing over and over. It ruins it for us that actually read stuff and search for a while before asking, but such is life.
Infact if you'd search you'd see that there are multiple threads of this nature all over every forum...I know I've seen quite a few on XDA alone.
codybear said:
Infact if you'd search you'd see that there are multiple threads of this nature all over every forum...I know I've seen quite a few on XDA alone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So are you saying the op didn't take his own advice?
BTW I am glad someone changed the title of this thread as no one is going to respect your opinion when you start off that way.
On a side note I am new to this forum but from my experience thus far it has been very underwhelming. I made one thread and had issues with posters coming off as elitists. I don't know how modding gets done around here but until people can be civil this will always be a secondary place for me to post about Android news and the Droid Incredible.
I expected more from an XDA forum.
Hand76 said:
So are you saying the op didn't take his own advice?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What he's saying is that there are a lot of people who don't read the Forum rules and post new threads without doing a little research to figure things out for themselves. If you need help figuring things out, that's fine- but don't expect other people to do your leg work for you.
Hand76 said:
On a side note I am new to this forum but from my experience thus far it has been very underwhelming. I made one thread and had issues with posters coming off as elitists. I don't know how modding gets done around here but until people can be civil this will always be a secondary place for me to post about Android news and the Droid Incredible.
I expected more from an XDA forum.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I looked up your thread, and honestly I found the answer to both of your questions with a very simple Google search- These are the threads that frustrate members most. There is already a thread that addresses everything from unlocking to removing apps and it's HERE, or better yet, you can look HERE for a list of safe apps to remove and how to remove them... This is where your questions should probably be, not in a new thread.
There are a lot of helpful, knowledgeable people here, you just gotta learn to follow the rules...
Calibob2001 said:
and honestly I found the answer to both of your questions with a very simple Google search
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So you suggest doing a google search instead of coming to these forums for an answer?
Calibob2001 said:
There is already a thread that addresses everything from unlocking to removing apps and it's HERE, or better yet, you can look HERE for a list of safe apps to remove and how to remove them... This is where your questions should probably be, not in a new thread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The first thread you linked to is a root thread that covers every topic under the sun. So according to you we should just have one thread on this entire forum and no one should post anything outside of it.
The second thread you linked to I posted in and got 1 answer but many other questions were unanswered.
Still you are coming off as a complete elitist and I don't know why this thread is stickied when on most other forums this would have been locked, especially with the condescending way you started things off.
That is just my two cents.
tl;dr
firstly the rules are already out there: dont repost them asking people not to repost
secondly people do search, but you cant expect everyone to get the search terms right all the time and find what they want. also there are a lot of questions that may sound similar but are not. most of the folks on xda are good people who are trying to get answers and are not purposeful spamming douchebags, so stop the whining and dont read threads you dont want to.
Related
When a member (both new and senior) repeats a post/question that has been answered before torches rise, everybody looses their head and hell breaks loose.
Just hear me out, please
Some members complain that repeating questions and posts "create spam" and just clug the forums. But comments that complain about those posts are just as unhelpful in the community.
All I'm saying is that I belive most users do search before posting a question, and they might not have found the answer with their specific phrasing. If they address the question in a different manner, in a near future when some one else encounters that same problem, they there are more chances of finding the answer, or even better: a more updated one!
So please: if you have easy access to the answer or a reference to it, it will cost you next to nothing and might save the forum several posts there after if you just actually help!!
This is something all forums suffer from. Just wanted to bring more awareness to the issue from a different perspective than most users.
... go ahead and flame me if you must
Jimmyy said:
All I'm saying is that I believe most users do search before posting a question, and they might not have found the answer with their specific phrasing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True enough, but the people who find the answers tend not to start a new thread about how they had a problem and then fixed it .
I've not really run into much trouble with the searching. If I find a thread where someone has asked a question that I'm also looking for the answer to and it's full of replies saying how it's been answered plenty of times before then at least I know it's an issue that's been dealt with and I can keep looking, confident that my answer is out there.
Sometimes it gets a little excessive when there's more than two or three replies to someone's thread telling them to search, but then it is clear that there's a hell of a lot of people out there that just plain don't bother trying to find things out for themselves. If anything can be done to make sure that they only do this the once, I'm all in favour.
ok, so i'll reply to this post by also referencing an answer
this thread is redundant you <insert worst insult you can think of here> noob
please see
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=371254
Ahhh....the irony!
I just put a rehash of previous posts in the last post and in my first post in that thread, and in Notatreofan's recent thread. Just so that more threads aren't created, I've included it here too.
_Alex_ said:
As for the problem with redundant threads, I've been trying to either:
Giving the new user a search term (that we know will help), or
given the new user a way to navigate and use the resources here, mostly created by us to prevent users from asking questions in the first place, or
given the noob the links he wanted.
If you're genuinely interested in helping others, you'll realize that two of the three ways actually teach a person new things, which means they'll be better off on their own, while #3 only encourages them to ask more questions.
Finally, it's not the amount of time you've been here reading, because that's not contributing back to the community. So my suggestion to you would be to come back and re-read this thread after you've contributed back to the forum by having at least 500+ genuinely helpful posts and see if you feel the same way.
And I don't mean your suggestions to fix a soft key issue by bashing the keyboard with a screwdriver
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'd like to add, if you're feeling particularly annoyed, you can always include this link. If you append your search terms like this:
Code:
http://www.justf**kinggoogleit.com/search?q=tilt+backlight+phone+call
It will redirect after 15 seconds to the google page you want. I highly suggest a bit of chastising when using that link, but please make sure they're aware that it is humorous and slightly offensive
Perhaps I've forgotten to emphasize that there is a fine line between chastising and harassing. Some members take it too far while not helping at all The idea is to get new users to become self-reliant, not flame the living crap out of them and belittle them
This getting a bit ridiculous, thie thread titled "How to pick a new ROM and Radio?" may have been redundant but it got some very good replies, stuff that I have over looked that i could use on my Kaiser like the Google gps and the Skyfire browser software , two pieces of info that I have missed seeing on this forum, to whick I have tried all because someone asked a basic question .
There is a lot very very good info that is here, but sometimes they are often buried long before a lot of users get to see them..
So why not allow some of them to continue and NOT edited out the info that is given in them
So what that a question has been asked many times over, this is the general forum for the device.... and is look at by a lot of new users.
Or how about just creating a newbie threads where it is allowed to ask often repeat question..... I think you were abit to quick in posting you fancy threaded closed picture...
and if you look at a some of the Rom threads here, some are very long 200 to 400 replies with very redundant answers like Oh what grweat looking rom, or I can not wait to try it...with alot of pat on the back answers....compared to the thread I spoke about which had some great info it till someone removed the info...
F2504x4 said:
This getting a bit ridiculous, thie thread titled "How to pick a new ROM and Radio?" may have been redundant but it got some very good replies, stuff that I have over looked that i could use on my Kaiser like the Google gps and the Skyfire browser software , two pieces of info that I have missed seeing on this forum, to whick I have tried all because someone asked a basic question .
There is a lot very very good info that is here, but sometimes they are often buried long before a lot of users get to see them..
So why not allow some of them to continue and NOT edited out the info that is given in them
So what that a question has been asked many times over, this is the general forum for the device.... and is look at by a lot of new users.
Or how about just creating a newbie threads where it is allowed to ask often repeat question..... I think you were abit to quick in posting you fancy threaded closed picture...
and if you look at a some of the Rom threads here, some are very long 200 to 400 replies with very redundant answers like Oh what grweat looking rom, or I can not wait to try it...with alot of pat on the back answers....compared to the thread I spoke about which had some great info it till someone removed the info...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Simple answer:
Because this is a developers forum, the rules are clear (though i doubt any of the offenders actually read them) that you should READ (which few do), SEARCH (which even fewer do) and post in an EXISTING thread (if only). Why should we change the rules of the forum just because nobody bothers to read them?
FWIW, mocking a mod will not get you anywhere...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=377
First off I was not mocking you just the picture used , it is kinda over board
IMO
Second off most sites that have stickies or read firsts or what ever they are called are ignored, very common problem and one that will never go away...sorry but that is true, i deal with the same issue on a couple of sites i admin...
As to the threads, that is what a general forum is for....Place to ask questions, that is also how a site grows as new members post and ask questions...even if its the same one over and over again.. Newbies do learn as they get more info.
I try to be as helpful to newbies as possible as I learn more and more,and share what i have learned , that is my way of giving back to a site,
and the same thing happens as the newcomer understands how and where to find the info that they are looking for, I just replied to a couple more. without putting them down btw, I just steered them to where they can find the info.... but at the same time , like I said before I learned something just by a often asked question getting some good replies , what is wrong with that ?
Why not let some of these threads run there course for a few days then lock them while leaving the info in them ? its a win win scenario, it will help cut down on these threads at the same time continuing to help the newcomers learn about there devices and this site..
The plus side to this is more money a site will make by the amount of traffic it gets from threads that are created....and also the possibility of them clicking the ads.. just a thought...
F2504x4 said:
First off I was not mocking you just the picture used , it is kinda over board
IMO
Second off most sites that have stickies or read firsts or what ever they are called are ignored, very common problem and one that will never go away...sorry but that is true, i deal with the same issue on a couple of sites i admin...
As to the threads, that is what a general forum is for....Place to ask questions, that is also how a site grows as new members post and ask questions...even if its the same one over and over again.. Newbies do learn as they get more info.
I try to be as helpful to newbies as possible as I learn more and more,and share what i have learned , that is my way of giving back to a site,
and the same thing happens as the newcomer understands how and where to find the info that they are looking for, I just replied to a couple more. without putting them down btw, I just steered them to where they can find the info.... but at the same time , like I said before I learned something just by a often asked question getting some good replies , what is wrong with that ?
Why not let some of these threads run there course for a few days then lock them while leaving the info in them ? its a win win scenario, it will help cut down on these threads at the same time continuing to help the newcomers learn about there devices and this site..
The plus side to this is more money a site will make by the amount of traffic it gets from threads that are created....and also the possibility of them clicking the ads.. just a thought...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I will concede to you that the idea of a new member thread where they can ask anything and everything as many times as they want without fear of being flamed is somewhat appealing. I think maybe if it could be stickied at the top so that it's always easy to find would be helpful too. Maybe, just maybe that could possibly cut down on the dozens of redundant threads started every single day.
Well now, i tend to respond to all redundant threads so that it will be easier when some1 searches for it. I.E. finding 10 redundant threads that have the same answer is a lot better then having 10 redundant threads where most of them are just flaming the person for not searching.
But closing a "clutter" thread is probably for the best. Its still accessible by search, and prevents the clutter thread to expand to something stupid. (I.E. 2 pages worth of people posting pics with babies getting fed)
scotchua said:
I will concede to you that the idea of a new member thread where they can ask anything and everything as many times as they want without fear of being flamed is somewhat appealing. I think maybe if it could be stickied at the top so that it's always easy to find would be helpful too. Maybe, just maybe that could possibly cut down on the dozens of redundant threads started every single day.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks,
you should stop by pirate4x4 , they deal with new jeep owners with with same old same questions by having a flame free zone ie: "Jeep - Non Hardcore"
Flame free Jeep talk about the basics. it helps with keeping them out of the high tech areas..where they will get blasted
Now i know that we cannot have a forum for each device but a thread where there questions can be asked would be great if you and the other mods are willing to test it out.... or maybe a sub forum with-in the Kaiser general forum so that you guys can move these kinds of questions to ?(shrugs shoulders).
i will as well as others will try to help out the best we can..
ekw, good point...
I just think it is better try and help out the newguys in a nice way at first, those with less then 30 or so posts and new join dates....after which they should pick up on how the site works....granted I am still a newb just because of the amount of info on this site and it is a bit hard to try a find it right a way
What's "Cluter" ?
californiarailroader said:
What's "Cluter" ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not sure. But If I see It I might have to Close it down.
To the OP:
I appreciate your thoughts and opinions, but the rules here were created for a reason, and they are enforced for a reason.
Believe me there was solid, almost scientific reasons behind the rules created.
The Kasier Forum has come after a long line of Forums, different techniques have been used to control the forums and our way is the way we will continue.
Thanks for your concern but, I don't see it changing anytime soon.
JimmyMcGee said:
I'm not sure. But If I see It I might have to Close it down.
To the OP:
I appreciate your thoughts and opinions, but the rules here were created for a reason, and they are enforced for a reason.
Believe me there was solid, almost scientific reasons behind the rules created.
The Kasier Forum has come after a long line of Forums, different techniques have been used to control the forums and our way is the way we will continue.
Thanks for your concern but, I don't see it changing anytime soon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well from my stand point and others that i have read that have similar thoughts , its not working...new threads are still being created and the same old questions are being asked.... so the battle rages on......job security for the staff
so flaming is okay...but redundant questions are not hmmm
"scientific reasons" , that sounds just like the engineers that that i have worked with that have the same results,to which we will kick the plans/designs back to them and then go head make the real world changes that do work....
But engineers and scientist's pretty much think alike(very difficult to get them to think outside the box) unless you find one that has mechanic's hands, then you keep him close at hand....
(sorry I am not trying to be sarcastic in this response ) <---just stating a view point..
You only see it with mods cleaning it up. You think its out of hand now. It would be more out of hand is if we weren't here.
We work hard behind the curtain trying to make this place enjoyable and readable to everyone. Even with the threats on our person and families, even with the bad attitudes, even with people thinking their way is better. But the mods push on.
Why? Because we want this place to be informative and enjoyable to everyone.
Side Note: I say that, not because I'm searching for thanks and gratitude towards me and the other mods. Just wanting to shed a little light as to why us mods do what we do. Because, like you members, we love tweaking our phones.
And to answer your question. No Flaming is NOT tolerated, but us mods can't be everywhere. You can always Report a trouble thread to us. Just click the "
{
"lightbox_close": "Close",
"lightbox_next": "Next",
"lightbox_previous": "Previous",
"lightbox_error": "The requested content cannot be loaded. Please try again later.",
"lightbox_start_slideshow": "Start slideshow",
"lightbox_stop_slideshow": "Stop slideshow",
"lightbox_full_screen": "Full screen",
"lightbox_thumbnails": "Thumbnails",
"lightbox_download": "Download",
"lightbox_share": "Share",
"lightbox_zoom": "Zoom",
"lightbox_new_window": "New window",
"lightbox_toggle_sidebar": "Toggle sidebar"
}
" to report a thread.
i'm a relatively new member of these forums and i would tend to agree with the mods...
the rules ARE crystal clear...the search DOES work...and when the mods say there are scientific reasons behind the rules, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the reasons
the flame free zone sounds like a nice idea but i fear it will just spoil the members (old and new alike) in a way that everyone can potentially end up posting and MAYBE getting answers in the flame free zone whereas most of their queries will DEFINITELY be answered MOST of the time from the wiki and by searching the existing threads
with personalized threads about already covered issues that seem to crave member-specific attention, the forum becomes less of a forum and more of a consultancy service...
being a new member myself, i don't think i have had to start any of my own threads so far...i was really really tempted to do so, especially with regards to which radio is good for me here in pakistan...but just by searching and reading a couple of threads, i quickly got a very good idea of the variables, constraints, and considerations involved in selecting a radio rom and why everyone says "try out every radio until you find a keeper"...
just my 2 cents...
ASCIIker said:
i'm a relatively new member of these forums and i would tend to agree with the mods...
the rules ARE crystal clear...the search DOES work...and when the mods say there are scientific reasons behind the rules, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize the reasons
the flame free zone sounds like a nice idea but i fear it will just spoil the members (old and new alike) in a way that everyone can potentially end up posting and MAYBE getting answers in the flame free zone whereas most of their queries will DEFINITELY be answered MOST of the time from the wiki and by searching the existing threads
with personalized threads about already covered issues that seem to crave member-specific attention, the forum becomes less of a forum and more of a consultancy service...
being a new member myself, i don't think i have had to start any of my own threads so far...i was really really tempted to do so, especially with regards to which radio is good for me here in pakistan...but just by searching and reading a couple of threads, i quickly got a very good idea of the variables, constraints, and considerations involved in selecting a radio rom and why everyone says "try out every radio until you find a keeper"...
just my 2 cents...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Before I was a mod, I had 1,400 posts and 0 created threads. So it can be done.
scotchua said:
Simple answer:
Because this is a developers forum, the rules are clear (though i doubt any of the offenders actually read them) that you should READ (which few do), SEARCH (which even fewer do) and post in an EXISTING thread (if only). Why should we change the rules of the forum just because nobody bothers to read them?
FWIW, mocking a mod will not get you anywhere...
http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=377
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With all due respect to the mods, whom I really do admire for their knowledge, dedication to the site and especially their patience. Props to NATF, P1 and Jimmie especially, I have a problem with the anonymous closing of threads.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=448207
While I applaud your closing of useless threads and this one was particularly offensive ( I am sure Leo and Dutty and sakajati spend hrs, days and months writing and developing new roms just so that they can be subjectively reviewed by noobs and the uninformed.) , I do think that it is equally troubling to have mods closing threads without an explanation or taking responsibilty. I think this undermines the faith we all have in this site ( to be unbiased and agenda free ) and the faith we have in the mods to administer this site in a way that people feel free to express opinions and exchange thoughts and ideas,unencumbered by personal biases and agendas
The previous thread and many others were closed for obvious reasons, with no explanation really needed, but it may not always be that way. So I think it is important that we know who, and get an explanation no matter how cursory , when a thread is closed.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for listening
JimmyMcGee said:
Believe me there was solid, almost scientific reasons behind the rules created.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In all honesty, and I'm NOT trying to be "smart" here, could you share a little? If there's a really compelling reason that I'm just missing, I'd be more than happy to keep my trap shut!
I completely understand the idea of trying to keep clutter down and trying not to waste time and bandwidth on flame wars. Nothing wrong with that.
I just think that the lack of any sort of sanctioned ROM comparison information makes it very difficult for beginners to understand the forums. And, honestly, I think it results in more "How I pick ROMs?!" threads than you'd see otherwise. And more work for the mods. And more hurt feelings from newbs, who still have the same question but don't really understand the answer.
It's much easier to tell an offender "Hey, use THIS thread" than it is to tell them, "You can't ask that question," because the latter statement is only going to lead to them asking, "Wait...why?"
I'm all for deleting clutter, but I can't help but feel that some of those "clutter" threads are symptoms of a lack of information about what different ROMs are for.
And, hey, as I mentioned in another thread, I think having a flame-filled, bilious "ROM discussion" thread might be worthwhile if only so mods can point to it as a shining example of why those threads are verboten.
typo said:
In all honesty, and I'm NOT trying to be "smart" here, could you share a little? If there's a really compelling reason that I'm just missing, I'd be more than happy to keep my trap shut!
I completely understand the idea of trying to keep clutter down and trying not to waste time and bandwidth on flame wars. Nothing wrong with that.
I just think that the lack of any sort of sanctioned ROM comparison information makes it very difficult for beginners to understand the forums. And, honestly, I think it results in more "How I pick ROMs?!" threads than you'd see otherwise. And more work for the mods. And more hurt feelings from newbs, who still have the same question but don't really understand the answer.
It's much easier to tell an offender "Hey, use THIS thread" than it is to tell them, "You can't ask that question," because the latter statement is only going to lead to them asking, "Wait...why?"
I'm all for deleting clutter, but I can't help but feel that some of those "clutter" threads are symptoms of a lack of information about what different ROMs are for.
And, hey, as I mentioned in another thread, I think having a flame-filled, bilious "ROM discussion" thread might be worthwhile if only so mods can point to it as a shining example of why those threads are verboten.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally understand what you are saying. And Regardless of what ever the Community does, you will have people who refuse to read "READ ME FIRST" or "READ HERE BEFORE POSTING" or "THIS IS THE THREAD WITH THE INFORMATION WE WANT" These are the people who post the "clutter" threads. And when I close a thread I call attention to my signature, if applicable, and the Kaiser Section Guidelines.
Hopefully this leads to people seeing why I closed their thread and alleviates any heard feelings.
I understand the desire to have a detailed explanation for why we close each thread, but to be completely honest, that is not feasible. Most of the threads which are closed are simply a case of people not searching and reading, and as such i suggest they search and read. Think about the amount of time you spend on here each day, then imagine if you had to spend 90% of it reading reported posts, discussing the correct course of action for each situation, closing threads, explaining your decisions to the people who caused the problem in the first place because they didn't read the guidelines in the first place.
Every moderator here is simply trying to do the best they can to keep this place cleaned up with the dozens of redundant threads posted in each forum every day, and the spam, the users fighting, etc. Plus we are trying to actually enjoy using the site some ourselves, and fix our own problems on our devices. This requires us to actually do some research, reading, and troubleshooting ourselves.
In conclusion, i recommend everyone read the link "What is XDA-Developers all about" before they post anything else. This explains why there is such a fundamental divide between so many of the new users and those who have been around her for awhile. This is a developers site, and not a tech support site. You will find many users, including myself, more than willing to help you, but that is not what the forum is for. As i said in my PM reply to Typo, I will be discussing the idea of a single thread to discuss why different people like certain roms. The major issue with that right now is that the members of this forum typically cannot discuss issues like that without it devolving into fighting. We would love to be able to allow postitive and useful discusssion about roms, and remember, MOST of the time, the problem has NOTHING to do with the moderators, and everything to do with people not reading the rules, or not respecting others.
denco7 said:
With all due respect to the mods, whom I really do admire for their knowledge, dedication to the site and especially their patience. Props to NATF, P1 and Jimmie especially, I have a problem with the anonymous closing of threads.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=448207
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just wanted to point out that my post you quoted was written 2 months before i became a moderator, and that i have always held that opinion, even back in January when i was a 1 post noob who moderators were telling to not post stuff in the wrong place.
I am sorry you disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread, but if you do, that should be handled by PM first before dragging it out into an open discussion. Also, i'm not sure why you find it "offensive" that he would close a thread he found unnecessary. We try to be as fair as possible, and are usually pretty objective. If you feel we made an error in judgement, please, as i said contact us via PM. We really are here to help.
scotchua said:
Just wanted to point out that my post you quoted was written 2 months before i became a moderator, and that i have always held that opinion, even back in January when i was a 1 post noob who moderators were telling to not post stuff in the wrong place.
I am sorry you disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread, but if you do, that should be handled by PM first before dragging it out into an open discussion. Also, i'm not sure why you find it "offensive" that he would close a thread he found unnecessary. We try to be as fair as possible, and are usually pretty objective. If you feel we made an error in judgement, please, as i said contact us via PM. We really are here to help.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am sorry that you did not read my post more closely. I did not disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread , I supported it . If you re-read my post , it was the thread that I found offensive and totally agreed it should have been closed, so there was no need to handle it in private. The problem I had was with the anonymous closing of the thread. I feel that anonymous administering of any site, undermines the integrity of the site. Jimmy usually closes the posts with a cursory " redundant " or "against forum posting rules " or " unproductive discussion ".
And for the other reasons I mentioned in my post , I thought that , it was important to be very visible in your closing of threads. Believe me the last thing I want to see is "reviewing" of peoples hard work that they so generously choose to share with the rest of us
I did not know that Jimmy closed the thread, it was just done. Much like the " anonymous administration " , I thought it was important to discuss my thoughts in the open so as not to lead anyone to believe that it was personal.
I have been very pleased with the direction that the forum has taken since you ,Dave, Jimmy, P1, and NATF were appointed mods ,very pleased.
Oh , and I'm sorry if you thought my post was based on your quote, I kind of just pulled your quote out of a hat as a means of restarting " the closing of clutter threads" thread.
denco7 said:
I am sorry that you did not read my post more closely. I did not disagree with Jimmy's decision to close the thread , I supported it . If you re-read my post , it was the thread that I found offensive and totally agreed it should have been closed, so there was no need to handle it in private.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you are right, i misunderstood you. my apologies. i understand what you are getting at now.
my 2 cents.
Unfortunately not everyone is a developer (like myself) but i am here and have been (hopefully) supplying helpful advice to everyone i respond to, i have a few times responded with the simple answer of "SEARCH!!!" but also i like to but not always like to leave them 2 or 3 links to things i simply searched relating to their problem, just to prove search does work.
Luckily i havent had any urgent, burning questions to where i needed to start a new thread (i dont think) and now am trying to teach myself how to develop software for my mobile (and yours).
So i agree with both sides redundant posts suck, but an anti flame noobs post here thread would be nice. If a question/amswer is good enough move it to the wiki or the main forum. if it's not it stays in the newb forum, also redundant threads could be thrown over there without worries.
-Mike
LOL,
this 'hidden disagreement' is really entertaining!
There is one thing members tend to forget:
This site belongs to the 'makers' of XDA DEVELOPERS. Those guys came up with house rules and general guidlines to keep it the place it was from the beginning: a nice site where you can mod your device, get a different ROM or develop your own. In addition the XDA Makers even added sections where you can get FREE HELP / SUPPORT and other useful information.
All of us 'non-mod's', 'non-Chefs' and 'non-admins' - no matter if JUNIOR or SENIOR member - we are not more but guests! We agreed to the forum rules when we first signed up. This is not our own forum, we are simply members. If the existing structure can't satisfy our needs, well, there are other forums we can join next to this one or we even can set up our own little discussion world somewhere!
Please keep in mind what this place was made for! Also keep in mind that we are nothing but guests on here. As guests we shouldn't complain about the dinner we get!
Even though I can understand that some people have a need to get it 'their way'; I do appreciate the strong and clean line XDA Developers keeps by closing or removing threads! (Yes, it happened to me too that threads were closed or removed! )
Please, guys! Keep smiling! This kind of threads start annoying me more and more - they have not much to do with the KAISER but are still posted in the KAISER section! Again another thread which won't provide helpful information in case someone is searching in the KAISER BOARDS ... !
Xperia ROM development forum is a mess!!
Guys,
every day i see a new thread created by some users.
It is mostly like, how can i do this, how can i do that.
It is really simple, if you want to ask something about an option or a function that isn;t working then please post in the corresponding thread so we can have a clean forum.
Here is a link to the rules:http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=256
please read it guys, it is very annoying to see a new thread everytime.
mods, please put some time in this xperia forum with cleaning out the ''litter''
@ all, thank you very much for your cooperation.
Now @ 203 views and nobody has left a comment or suggestion or something like that?
I think this is what the community has become, like only get what you need and then use it and then complaining, no suggestions or anything, no thanks for the chefs ?
i understand what ur saying but a im pretty sure a mod has just moved some of the useless threads because a lot of them have been moved
Shazad.K said:
Now @ 203 views and nobody has left a comment or suggestion or something like that?
I think this is what the community has become, like only get what you need and then use it and then complaining, no suggestions or anything, no thanks for the chefs ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stop complaining... j/k
No, I think you made your point. You don't need any more spamming of THIS thread.
yeah thats right the forum is mess
but why?
the people are lazy to read
i hope we can change this in the future....
greetZ
and to all other Merry X MAS
Shazad.K said:
Now @ 203 views and nobody has left a comment or suggestion or something like that?
I think this is what the community has become, like only get what you need and then use it and then complaining, no suggestions or anything, no thanks for the chefs ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No.
I think people read your post and ignored it because it contained nothing useful in itself. It's a public forum, if you want neat and tidy you're probably in the wrong place.
I'm not looking to pick argument it just seems to me your original post was pointless. In most cases the title of a thread gives you enough info to decided whether it's worthy of reading.
Sure there are plenty of people who come here just to get what they want and give nothing back, again it's the nature of the beast. But I think there's still plenty of people who are willing to give as well as take and on a whole the forum still functions well.
My biggest gripe would be people asking questions answered on the previous page (i.e. lack of search) not untidiness.
Also I think the X1 forum has lost a lot of active members to the LEO forum recently. Again this is inevitable given the age of the device and the progression of handsets.
The LEO thread is much more active currently IMO. POP over there, don't forget most of what they're discussing applies to our device too.
pheL said:
yeah thats right the forum is mess
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Confirm, a bit..
pheL said:
but why?
the people are lazy to read
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
this is true, but some can also give reasons (which are also true) that some threads are really huge, specially good rom threads, on average they are 1000 posts longs, some go as long as 11,000 posts (valkyrie), when someone new get a rom and gets a small bug, it is really impossible to read all past thread, and unfortunately the thread search is not always helpful...
the best thing for a rom forum is to be a wiki, where each rom gets a page with generic information, and links to threads of sub pages that have useful information, like how to fix a known bug, or where to get an app that does that thing..... and leave the bla bla discussions or personal opinions on the forum.
some rom developers follow such a method, but partially, in the first few posts reserved for the rom you sometimes find links to common issues and solutions, but after a while everything gets messy again....
a ROM is a "product" that needs its own area or even a forum by itself. not a single forum for many products, this brings the mess....
but this need much organization, the price to be less messy
Newbies don't know their way around
Shazad.K said:
Guys,
every day i see a new thread created by some users.
It is mostly like, how can i do this, how can i do that.
It is really simple, if you want to ask something about an option or a function that isn;t working then please post in the corresponding thread so we can have a clean forum.
Here is a link to the rules:http://forum.xda-developers.com/announcement.php?f=256
please read it guys, it is very annoying to see a new thread everytime.
mods, please put some time in this xperia forum with cleaning out the ''litter''
@ all, thank you very much for your cooperation.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You are right and its mostly down to newbies. I'm someone who makes a point of holding off on posting on a few forum until I see the layout, get the rules, etc. so I don't annoy seasoned members and get a bad rep for being stupid.
A lot of new members to the site are a bit out of their depth (I know I was when I first joined) and its not really only being used as a developers forum/site any more. If you're a newbie you've got two choices: (1) ask, (2) spend countless hours trying to work it out for yourself.
I guess the lazy ones are a bit thread happy!
EmuX
P.S. You can show people the rules but you can't make them read.
P.P.S. Isn't this another one of those clogging up threads that aren't anything to do with ROM dev though?! (joke)
I hovered around in the X1 forum for a little more than a year, and most recently, after getting a new (additional) toy, I moved over to another forum, the one which is mentioned here already.
Frankly spoken, I have the perception that the X1 forum here is quite in order, while the HD2 forum is a real mess. For many "similar" problems and questions, many newcomers open a new thread instead of using the search function. In case of the X1 forum, there is much more "discipline".
Plus, the mods of the forums are quite effective here, I would say.
I am still very thankful that xda devs exists, thanks to all who contribute, especially the cooks... and also to those who help understanding the forum (and its rules) to newcomers. All of us started "small" and as "newb", no? And from time to time, I try to help, too - even if I am just an "average" user.
Mods please close thread
I think the point is made.
mods, please close this thread
im partly responsible for your this thread and once agian, i am sorry....i promise u it wont happen again..
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. ~Winston Churchill
Sorry to all the mods and admins again...
Edit: Well, I guess now the original thread has been deleted. I guess that's what I get for questioning authority.
Well I didn't close it, but having looked at the newer thread I can see why it was closed. Perhaps a word or two in a final post might have helped.
I can see why you say that it is not an "out and out" religious thread, BUT it does clearly invite religious discussion in the first post when it asks
"is God testing us?"
The above is the reason for closure, I assume you have highlighted a discrepancy with our rules - it has, for as long as I can remember, been against the rules to discuss religion, whilst being OK to merely mention what religion you are. We have also ignored brief good wishes posts related to religious festivals.
Mike
Please point me in the direction of this rule sheet that says religion is not to be discussed.
New forum rules, please read!
1. Search before posting
Use one of our search functions before posting, whether you have a question or something new to share, it's very likely someone already asked that question or shared that news.
2. Be polite and respect your fellow xda-dev user.
There is no need for cursing, flaming, racism or personal attacks. There are a lot of different nationalities on this forum all with different cultures, this means that no matter what you're like, you'll have to adjust to people that are most definitely not like you. It will gain you a lot of respect if you help to keep the peace. It's disrespectful and therefore not permitted to create Alias Member names in an attempt to deceive others.
3. Post only using a clear subject and message.
You're most likely to receive a helpful answer to your question if you use a short subject title that describes your problem and a message that explains in detail what your problem is and what you've tried to solve it.
4. Use the English language.
We understand that with all the different nationalities not everyone speaks English well, but please try. If you're really unable to post in English use an online translator, You're free to include your original message in your own language below the English translation.
5. Post a message only once.
As a large forum we don't need unnecessary clutter, You're free to edit your message as you like, so if you do not receive an answer revisit your message and see if you can describe your problem better. Not everyone is online at the same time, it might take a while before you receive an answer.
6. Do not post warez.
If a piece of software requires you to pay to use it, either pay or find your cracks and serials somewhere else. We do not accept warez nor do we permit any member to promote or describe ways in which Warez, cracks, serial codes or other means of avoiding payment, can be obtained.
7. Do not spam.
If you wish to advertise a product, contact us we provide ads. But do not post it in the forums, it will be removed and you're likely to receive a ban.
You are however allowed to sell used goods like your own device, parts of your device or accessories for your device in the marketplace forum, please read the rules there before posting. (This rule includes signatures, if you use a signature it will appear in your post)
8. Donations.
We appreciate all donations to xda-developers.com, it keeps our forum online and well maintained. As a user you're allowed to ask for donations in your signature as a thank you for your hard work. However donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for.
9. Don't get us in trouble.
Don't post copyrighted materials or do other things that will obviously lead to legal trouble. If you wouldn't do it on your own homepage, you probably don't want to do it here either. This does not mean we agree with everything the software piracy lobby try to impose on us, it simply means you cannot break any laws here, since we'll end up dealing with legal hassle caused by you. Please use common sense: respect the forum, its users, and those that write great code.
10. Help others if you can.
If you see posts from others where you can help out, please do. This place exists because people are helping each other, and even if you are relatively new to the matter, there's probably already quite a few people newer than you that would benefit from what you've learned. Don't be shy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
These are the only set of rules that I've found, and I see nothing about religion in them. If it is indeed against the rules to discuss religion, maybe it should be put into the rule sheet.
And there is no need to apologize with a thread that ended with photoshopped steven seagal pictures...It was going wayyyyy off-topic anyway...Oh...wait...that's another thread...
But still, my point of not having to apologize still stays...
I sent a PM to the-equinoxe about it.
He said it's a rule that threads about Religion are not allowed.
I believe him when he says that; but the way he closed the thread is something I don't really understand.
BTW fiktion are you the starter of that thread?
Nope. I didn't even post in it. I just didn't agree with why and how it was closed.
fiktion said:
Edit: Well, I guess now the original thread has been deleted. I guess that's what I get for questioning authority.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you guessed wrong.
OP of thread you where referring to, requested for the thread to be deleted.
[ElCondor] said:
I sent a PM to the-equinoxe about it.
He said it's a rule that threads about Religion are not allowed.
I believe him when he says that; but the way he closed the thread is something I don't really understand.
BTW fiktion are you the starter of that thread?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
-see mikechannon's reply re. religion.
My closing post in the religious and OT thread was clear:
"This is a Technology forum and not a forum to discuss religion.
(as stated in the forum rules).
Hence this thread is closed."
What did you want to see more?
BTW. Fiction has nothing to do with thread, he even didn't post in it.
If you guys want to discuss religion, feel free to do so in forums who are actually made for that kind of discussions.
Closing this thread also, because this discussion leads to nowhere.
The TownHall Meeting has been officially started. Here are the rules of engagement:
Ok, enough joking for now. Here are the true rules of engagement:
1. Posts that are flaming or flame bait are to be deleted, no questions asked.
2. Language to be edited on sight....
3. No banning, No infractions.
4. Moderators will act only as a mediator, so we will not be taking sides with anyone.
Welcome everyone
@everyone,
Please respect the rules above and I can guarantee you that by the end of the day, we will have a much happier and friendlier atmosphere in this place.
Summary of action items
This was a good meeting in General and it has covered all of the things that I had in my agenda. A few action items on our (mods) end:
1. New threads for ROM updates: Rom threads become quasi chaotic after page 100 or so. Since Chefs update most of their work often, I would suggest that chefs open a new thread for each version with a date and version number to distinguish it from the previous one (maybe even a name)
ie [ROM] 12/15/10 - Inchybrid v 1.2 - all is good now
2. Rom Review Thread: In order to minimize the clutter of the usual "what rom is best" questions, we will start a ROM thread where chefs can post a link to their roms on the first few posts and users will be able to leave reviews (not necessarily feedback), but reviews. So, when someone comes asking for the best rom, that person can be directed there.
3. Wiki update and guides (sticky): These need to be heavily updated, but will certainly be a useful tool to help people with questions.
4. Location / shape of the Report button: I will talk to the other admins and see what can be done about this one.
5. Preventing non-devs from making new threads in Dev: We are currently discussing a system for this. We will keep you posted if and when we reach a conclusion.
6. Off Topic Lounge: There will be a thread in General for you guys to blow off steam. Nothing fancy, but you can post there without having to open a new thread in OT general
Now, onto the action items results and requests from us (mods)
1. Further flaming for questions will not be tolerated. I gathered from this meeting that everyone agrees on a stance that people need not be flamed for asking anything. If there are questions in the wrong areas or simply don't feel like answering, refrain from posting and report it to us. We will move it to Q&A or General depending on the question. Building on this point, if anyone is caught flaming someone who posted in the correct section, that person will be given a vacation.
2. Rule 12 (aka Kanging): Rom chefs (no matter if they are themers or zip wizards), if they are using someone else's efforts as a base for their rom, they are to abide by Rule 12 by asking permission and posting the due credit in the opening post. Kanging will not be tolerated.
3. Donations: This was barely brushed but I feel that we reached an understanding rather quickly on this one. Chefs shall not ask for Donations to release early work.
4. Posting any kind of flaming will not be tolerated. If you feel that a post shouldn't be there, please let us know and we will take care of that.
I think this pretty much summed everything up. If I missed something, please let me know. I expect everyone to adhere to codes of conduct in this site. Thanks to all for attending.
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
lralexl said:
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for starting things off...
So, what you are saying is that a lot of the flaming occurs due to skinners being deemed as kangers. Am I getting this right?
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev. It looks like the biggest problem is either a misunderstanding about this rule or lack of knowledge about its existence by both accusing party and "guilty/innocent" party. As a general rule of thumb, if you are making a rom that is based on someone else's work:
* Ask for permission
* Give credit where its due
Simple as that.
Interesting point...
From my experience on hero, people tend to post a theme pack for a ROM. For example, a few regular users port the same few themes into each new ROM I make, and release an add-on patch for it.
They don't go and release it as a separate ROM, but if they did, I have no doubt they would ask me about it first, and I would say sure, but with the caveat that we don't want it to happen too often... What would people think if we had one ROM that is tweaked theme-wise a few times and re-posted as separate ROMs?
There's no "right" answer, but provided people ask the original developers, and give credit per rule 12, then there is no issue with the rules there, so users would be allowed to.
Whether or not it is a "ROM" is up to individual perspectives then.
egzthunder1 said:
Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
lralexl said:
I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
One (implied) rule of thumb is that if the "dev" in question cannot support their release, you are more than likely dealing with a themer or a "zip wizard" and as such, you are probably better off trying to find the source of the rom and apply the theme/fix as a separate add-on.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It may be a bit of added work, but the Rom review thread is not a bad idea. Just keep it clean from clutter and you have a very good tool to prevent new threads of "What is the best rom?" kind from erupting... I like that!
When it comes from flaming, some people will just put out flame bait for the hell of it. What I need, or at least I would like to see, is for everyone to stick to code of conduct and either ignore it, report it, or else, just not add to the fire.
First, we do recognize that we have a problem. We know this because 1) developers are leaving and forming their own sites because they don't like some of the things going on here. And 2) newer people are afraid to post here. Instead, they go to other forums and ask questions and state that they are afraid to post here. Both of these are big problems for the health of the site.
So, we look at the root causes. Most of them stem from 1) a lack of courtesy or 2) a lack of proper conduct. But I think the problems start with:
1. The Samsung Vibrant's stock software is not up to par due to some poor performing components, such as the GPS.
2. Samsung and T-Mobile have failed to communicate with their community.
3. Many people have come to sites like XDA for help.
What this means is that we have a lot of people in the Development forum who really aren't developers. But, they are here because they want help making their Vibrants perform better. That's not an excuse. I'm just saying that we probably have a lot of people in the Developer section who probably should be in QA or General section.
I think we would do well to:
1. Create a NooB forum, or emphasize the General forum as the place to be.
2. Post all new released ROMs in its own forum (not General, but "ROMS" or "Releases") That way people can go there for ROMS and for SUPPORT.
3. I would hope that this would enable the development forum to get back to being one were developers (or people who are interested in developing) could hang out.
Lastly, there are just some people who are like to cause trouble or are overly sensitive. I'm not sure what to do with them. But if they can't play nice, probably the first thing is to "parent" them and see if they can play nice. If that doesn't work, then it is time for a "timeout", or a temporary or permanent ban.
Lastly, while I appreciate the TownHall meeting, let's not lose site of the good things happening here. I would say that the majority of people are following the rules and making meaningful contributions. But if just 10% of the people do bad things, it colors the entire community.
The Vibrant subforums have seemed to be more Wild West than anything. I feel there should be a better mod presence. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly how difficult it is to do all the moderating, especially given how much of it is behind the scenes, but I feel that there is still some regulation lacking. We need to see more people get warned within threads that get out of hand, and frankly, some banning might get the message across that XDA is going to stop taking this crap from people. This board has gotten ridiculous w/ the flaming and incessant bs. Moderation can only go so much, since it's really up to the posting base to change their ways and be more respectful towards one another in order to truly make a long-term difference, but in the short-term we need some better, more aggresive moderation since changing peoples' posting habits will not be a quick thing to happen.
Proud to be a noob
I think there does seem to be a general consensus around us "noobs" about our failure to use the "search" function in a thread that has over 600 + pages of posts. God knows I would love to just flash a ROM and read basic information or FAQ's from the developer (the one individual who SHOULD know more about their own product than anyone) if I have questions, but when you have over 200 posts about how much others love/hate the ROM/developer or personal rants or recommendations/requests for the ROM they have had no part in developing, it does make it difficult to filter out the answer to the force close issue I am experiencing (for example). Then the flame wars begin! How DARE I ask that question since it was answered previously 42 pages back with a link to another developers thread, posted on page 418 of their 700 page manifesto...you get the hint. Finding basic answers to questions is challenging at best, and most newcomers end up getting ridiculed to the point of not wanting to have any further part, or end up flaming right back. Newsflash : just because you have flashed every possible combination of ROM/kernel/modem, does in no way make you an expert. Leave that to the people that make the ROM. Replies should be streamlined to relevant information allowed only, or force a PM if you want to discuss something irrelevant or bash a newcomer if it makes you feel better.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was think about that the other day...that's a good idea and that way the develoment forum will be kept clean.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are you able to comment on the personal issues or are you simply surmising?
Thanks
WB
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To expand on this point, I've noticed people flaming over pretty much any definition. Someone posts that they're disappointed by GPS performance or screen burn in, and they get an argument over what constitutes a "feature" of the phone and told that their concern is not important. People forget that what might not be important to them may be a dealbreaker for someone else.
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Since that's where I spend most of my time I can say for certain that this is true. I think there's a lot of younger kids in the vibrant forum who like picking fights and just generally being less than friendly. It seems like the answer to most questions asked is go search for it yourself. The information is readily available most of the time if theyd just look, but there's no reason to be rude about it.
With that said, I think since the thanks button has been added its made for a better atmosphere--so far. Definitely a welcome addition that will hopefully keep things civil.