Do you think this will ever get cracked? I'm almost at my 30 trial ending. And if its not looking possible them I would like to exchange for the incredible.
I can tell you it isn't going to be hacked in 30 days. The milestone has been out for how long and it still isn't hacked.
You can send me your DX
Nick - I have both right now trying to decide. Do you have any questions? Happy to help if I can. I started with the inc and now I'm trying the X. I think I'm going to stick with the X
Sent from my DROIDX using Swype and XDA App
If you think getting custom ROMs on this phone will be possible before you're of retirement age why don't you ask a Milestone owner how they like CM6?
i was going to till full root/rom's etc befoe i got my x. i am glad i did not. for now i am happy with at least being able
to remove bloat. i am sure the best people are working on it right now. even with being limited to what i can do with this phone, i am happier with it than i was with the dinc.
Sent from my DROIDX using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
[email protected]
So a lot of people here have programming skills right?
Would it be possible to develop a [email protected] type of program ([email protected]) which could brute force the bootloader encryption? I would GLADLY participate.
I'm sure there are some clues from previous devices or looking at this one which would reduce the amount to look for.
Might be impossible but I wish somebody would do the math on it, with say 1000 computers, how long could it take min/max?
I sent back an HTC Incredible for the X because it's obviously a superior device, but I've been reading through the HTC Incr forums and am questioning my decision to switch. The HTC apps (light, etc), 2.2 already, and no encrypted bootloader bs. I really hope the droid X gets unlocked, and soon. It's like buying a car but they weld the hood shut so you can't mess with the engine then saying, "We do that because you might mess it up" even after you inform them that, "I own it!?!?". There is no legal reason to lock the bootloader, no intellectual property to be given away. And reason #1, it goes against the principals of open source and takes away KEY features of android. Google Android devices potential can only be realized once the developer community tinkers, optimizes, destroys, and reinvents the phone and its contents, this amazing process won't happen with the Motorola Droid X because of its bootloader lock, and that's sad.
My humble opinion: Google (excellent reputation), Motorola (decent reputation), fix this with GOOD press, First page on all android sites shows "uggggg, Motorola locked up their new device". seriously Motorola, you KNEW this was not going to be well received by your customers.
Oh yeah, good news for the Droid X. Saw somewhere where somebody talked to some verizon store staff (reliable source, i know, hah) who said that the X was planned to come with Froyo, but was rushed a month early (because of the HTC Inc delays, which were very real) and forced to throw together 'blur' for 2.1. Whether this is true or not is a toss up, but I sure do hope so. I just don't see why this wasn't publicized. Can't wait for this 2.1 virus to get off my machine (kiddin').
Come to think about it, Motorola's 2.2 might blow our socks off, and could even potentially unlock the damn bootloader, damn I'm tired of saying bootloader.
I love this idea. Can you start a new thread on it?!
If it was that easy and you'd just have to gather a few PCs together to brute force the encryption, we would have decrypted Playstation 3s and Milestones today. Sadly, it's not that easy if the key is 128 Bit long or so.
And I'm also doubtful that Motorola will just give in. The omission of the WiFi-Teather function in the Droid's Froyo Update as well as the soon-to-be-released Droid 2 that has this feature and the locking of the bootloader on the Milestone with absolute disregard to all people complaining about it - even going so far as to tell them to buy HTC phones - shows that Motorola doesn't even want us "advanced users" as customers.
5 Dollars says HTC starts doing the same sooner or later.
I wouldn't be too surprised if it'd happen, either. Still, they don't use TI-OMAP-Processors with their cool (read: horrible) "High Security" mode. So it'll be a lot harder for them to pull something like this off.
Imo it is more up to the carrier. T mobile seems really lax about rooting and custom roms. While all verizon android phone have been fairly locked down. Except the droid one. But even the eris and incredible by htc were tough to crack.
I think verizon doesn't want people messing up there phones and exchanging them as well as all the bandwith from tethering. They charge 20$ a month the tether so obviously they have an interest in not wanting you to get that functionality for free.
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
That just begs the question as to why the Milestone is locked down, which isn't even exclusive to any provider as far as I know.
And forcing people to use the free option (root + WiFi-Teather) instead of a payed option (Froyo-Teather) doesn't make sense if they want to gain extra money.
jvward said:
5 Dollars says HTC starts doing the same sooner or later.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
htc will not go to lock down. They have been very easing on allowing custom roms.
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
Meister_Li said:
If it was that easy and you'd just have to gather a few PCs together to brute force the encryption, we would have decrypted Playstation 3s and Milestones today. Sadly, it's not that easy if the key is 128 Bit long or so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good point about the ps3, I was just wondering if you guys wanted to do something new and challenging... anyways i decided to do some limited research on my own and...
"For cryptographers, a cryptographic "break" is anything faster than an exhaustive search. Thus, an 100 XSL attack against a 128-bit-key AES requiring 2 100 128 operations (compared to 2 128 possible keys) would possible keys) would be considered a break. The largest successfu publicly-known brute force attack has been against a 64-bit RC5 key by distributed.net.
Unlike most other block ciphers, AES has a very neat[ 10] algebraic description.[ 10] In 2002, a theoretica algebraic description In 2002, a theoretica attack, termed the "XSL attack", was announced by Nicolas Courtois and Josef Pieprzyk, purporting to show a weakness in the AES algorithm due to its[ 11] simple description.[ 11] Since then, other papers have simple description Since then, other papers have shown that the attack as originally presented is unworkable; see XSL attack on block ciphers.
O[ 14] n July 1, 2009, Bruce Schneier blogged[ 14] about a about a related-key attack on the 192-bit and 256-bit versions of AES, discovered by Alex Biryukov and[ 15] Dmitry Khovratovich,[ 15] which exploits AES's which exploits AES's somewhat simple key schedule and has a complexity 99.5 of 2 99.5. This is a follow-up to an attack discovered of 2. This is a follow-up to an attack discovered earlier in 2009 by Alex Biryukov, Dmitry Khovratovich, and Ivica Nikolić, with a complexity of 96 35[ 16] 2 96 for one out of every 2 35 keys.[ 16] Another 2 for one out of every 2 keys Another[ 17] attack was blogged by Bruce Schneier[ 17] on July 30 on July 30[ 18] 2009 and released as a preprint[ 18] on August 3 on August 3 2009. This new attack, by Alex Biryukov, Orr Dunkelman, Nathan Keller, Dmitry Khovratovich and Adi Shamir, is against AES-256 that uses only 39 two related keys and 2 39 time to recover the two related keys and 2 time to recover the 45 complete 256-bit key of a 9-round version, or 2 45 time for a 10-round version with a stronger type of 70 related subkey attack, or 2 70 time for a 11-round related subkey attack, or 2 time for a 11-round version. 256-bit AES uses 14 rounds, so thes
In November 2009, the first known-key distinguishing attack against a reduced 8-round[ 19] version of AES-128 was released as a preprint.[ 19] This known-key distinguishing attack is an mprovement of the rebound or the start-from-the- middle attacks for AES-like permutations, which view two consecutive rounds of permutation as the application of a so-called Super-Sbox. It works on the 8-round version of AES-128, with a computation 48 32 complexity of 2 48, and a memory complexity of 2 32. complexity of 2, and a memory complexity of 2. In July 2010 Vincent Rijmen published an ironic paper on "chosen-key-relations-in-the-middle"[ 20] attacks on AES-128[ 20] attacks on AES-128"
All of the numbers/powers are messed up, will fix once at a computer, or look at wikipedia.
If anything i take this info as good news. Says to me that cracking 8 round 128 AES is very possible,
Can somebody read this mans paper?
"In July 2010 Vincent Rijmen published an ironic paper on "chosen-key-relations-in-the-middle"[ 20] attacks on AES-128[ 20] attacks on AES-128"
My goal is that if this project would take 2 months, that means we will have the bootloader key by the first of october, which would be GREAT.
If I were going to require signatures, I'd go with public/private keys with a far greater length...
I could be talking out my wazoo here because I am not an Android developer, but it would seem to make more sense to use 1024 or 2048bit RSA keys for the signing...
EDIT: Additionally, has Motorola actually encrypted anything, or are they just requiring a valid signature on the software that is to be booted and the public key is used to verify the signature made by the private key?
derekm_ said:
Good point about the ps3, I was just wondering if you guys wanted to do something new and challenging... anyways i decided to do some limited research on my own and...
"For cryptographers, a cryptographic "break" is anything faster than an exhaustive search. Thus, an 100 XSL attack against a 128-bit-key AES requiring 2 100 128 operations (compared to 2 128 possible keys) would possible keys) would be considered a break. The largest successfu publicly-known brute force attack has been against a 64-bit RC5 key by distributed.net.
Unlike most other block ciphers, AES has a very neat[ 10] algebraic description.[ 10] In 2002, a theoretica algebraic description In 2002, a theoretica attack, termed the "XSL attack", was announced by Nicolas Courtois and Josef Pieprzyk, purporting to show a weakness in the AES algorithm due to its[ 11] simple description.[ 11] Since then, other papers have simple description Since then, other papers have shown that the attack as originally presented is unworkable; see XSL attack on block ciphers.
O[ 14] n July 1, 2009, Bruce Schneier blogged[ 14] about a about a related-key attack on the 192-bit and 256-bit versions of AES, discovered by Alex Biryukov and[ 15] Dmitry Khovratovich,[ 15] which exploits AES's which exploits AES's somewhat simple key schedule and has a complexity 99.5 of 2 99.5. This is a follow-up to an attack discovered of 2. This is a follow-up to an attack discovered earlier in 2009 by Alex Biryukov, Dmitry Khovratovich, and Ivica Nikolić, with a complexity of 96 35[ 16] 2 96 for one out of every 2 35 keys.[ 16] Another 2 for one out of every 2 keys Another[ 17] attack was blogged by Bruce Schneier[ 17] on July 30 on July 30[ 18] 2009 and released as a preprint[ 18] on August 3 on August 3 2009. This new attack, by Alex Biryukov, Orr Dunkelman, Nathan Keller, Dmitry Khovratovich and Adi Shamir, is against AES-256 that uses only 39 two related keys and 2 39 time to recover the two related keys and 2 time to recover the 45 complete 256-bit key of a 9-round version, or 2 45 time for a 10-round version with a stronger type of 70 related subkey attack, or 2 70 time for a 11-round related subkey attack, or 2 time for a 11-round version. 256-bit AES uses 14 rounds, so thes
In November 2009, the first known-key distinguishing attack against a reduced 8-round[ 19] version of AES-128 was released as a preprint.[ 19] This known-key distinguishing attack is an mprovement of the rebound or the start-from-the- middle attacks for AES-like permutations, which view two consecutive rounds of permutation as the application of a so-called Super-Sbox. It works on the 8-round version of AES-128, with a computation 48 32 complexity of 2 48, and a memory complexity of 2 32. complexity of 2, and a memory complexity of 2. In July 2010 Vincent Rijmen published an ironic paper on "chosen-key-relations-in-the-middle"[ 20] attacks on AES-128[ 20] attacks on AES-128"
All of the numbers/powers are messed up, will fix once at a computer, or look at wikipedia.
If anything i take this info as good news. Says to me that cracking 8 round 128 AES is very possible,
Can somebody read this mans paper?
"In July 2010 Vincent Rijmen published an ironic paper on "chosen-key-relations-in-the-middle"[ 20] attacks on AES-128[ 20] attacks on AES-128"
My goal is that if this project would take 2 months, that means we will have the bootloader key by the first of october, which would be GREAT.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The keys are almost definitely 2048bit, a 128bit key would be cracked in a matter of hours. I'm going to be getting an X in the mail in a few days, so we'll be taking a look at ways to get around the bootloader signing.
mrozzeh said:
The keys are almost definitely 2048bit, a 128bit key would be cracked in a matter of hours. I'm going to be getting an X in the mail in a few days, so we'll be taking a look at ways to get around the bootloader signing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So we'd need the collective power of every computer on earth for like1000 years?
I have lots of respect for the unrevoked team, please kee us informed and let me know if there's anything i can do to speed this up (i guess we should wait for froyo first)
Ok, i 'think' i've located the eFuse chip, any chance of bricking my phone if i physically remove it? Alright, took the chip out, how do i know if its unlocked?
Excuse my ignorance but is the eFuse thing the source of all these problems or is it unrelated
Also, read something about the new encrypted processors, it said one possible way to crack them could possibly involve heating up the chip hoping to get some useful faults or something to that effect.
Sounds like a good time let's get all our built computers and have a bbq android meet and crack this thing.
Big Dawg 23 said:
htc will not go to lock down. They have been very easing on allowing custom roms.
Sent from my DROIDX using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have you ever owned an HTC Eris? That thing took over 7 months to crack. The only reason they had root was because a rooted update "leaked" into their hands.
HTC's are already locked down. Pretty damn good.
It seems that a lot of people think that situation with DROID X being locked is somewhat new.
It is, in fact, not.
That is one of the official Motorola rep posts that summarises situation pretty well: http://community.developer.motorola...OMs-and-Motorola-s-Android-Handsets/ba-p/4224
In short - Motorola always dedicated significant time & money investment to signature lock their Linux kernel-based phones. They did it for several years, even before they started producing Android phones (they started using Linux kernel even before that). Since significant investment was spend into that, they will not just "unlock" it any time soon - because the management person who will have to make that decision will essentially have to take responsibility for all previous time & money spent just have to be thrown away. I dont see this realistically happen.
Also people fail to realise that it was DROID that was an exception for being unlocked, not the other way (confirmed by Motorola),- and Motorola will do anything in their power to prevent this exception from happening ever again.
Now about "cracking the bootloader". Recent OMAP platform that Motorola uses implements almost full TPM-hardware security model. It was not designed by stupid people, and, since it's a hardware security, it will have to be cracked on hardware level - unless some stupid vulnerability will be found at the very root of trust chain (and this is very unlikely, since root is hardware-based, and it's security-polished to perfection). Another possible attack is if private key will be stolen/leak somehow - very unlikely (but higher probability then cracking 2048-bit RSA encryption used anyway )
To prevent yourself from suggesting stuff that was long tried before, you really should familiarize yourself with this wiki, mainly dedicated to attempts of bypassing Motorola kernel security - http://and-developers.com/
There is a nicely classified database of attack tried, and why they didn't work.
Related
I just read two similar postings to this, but I felt like I needed to give my opinions anyways. It's not exactly the same anyways.
Nexus One was Google's grand experiment. Some have considered it a failure due to sales numbers, some a success due to lack of marketing, some have lots to say about changing distribution channels, and the plusses and negatives.
But we are the test subjects here. And I'll tell you, coming from WinMo and a TP2, I was at first surprised and happy with my decision to impulse buy an experiment on a new OS. Speed, just-worksness, etc. My only negative was missing Sense. And then Modaco ported the Desire ROM, which I have to say isn't perfect but is 10x more stable than my old TP2 roms. I loved my phone.
However... being a test subject has worn on me. One: the first loved then panned screen, which I've heard everything from inferior coloring to last generation hardware on multitouch, none of which has bothered me, to the infuriating reception, which I have definitely been party to. Worst of all is the world class hardware HTC made to match the Iphone's style... matches it's weakness. I'm on my third N1. One broken digitizer, one broken LCD. Third one no problems so far. The LCD ridiculously while in my pocket.
And finally, the development community. One guy posted about the lack of comparitive stuff he could add from rooting. Any smartphone can add tethering. Porting Sense completed the phone for me, as I missed my smart dialing and weather clock. He got flamed for being demanding of devs, which I can understand on a dev community board... but I agree. The N1 was supposed to be the XDA's dream phone. Fastest updates, superior hardware... you could do anything with this phone. So we have a modified stock rom with additional features and RAM, Apps2SD, and ported Sense. Modaco is off for two weeks, and actually was hammering releases out daily for a while. But on my inferior TP2 they ported HD2 Roms, non HTC Roms, every new feature on any winmo phone... xda did that. They ported Android and convinced me to buy the n1! I am in no way complain about devs. Especially Cyanogen, Modaco, and that guy who has ported both Motoblur and Espresso and is now working on X10 Rom. I patiently await what they do. But all in all, developer response to N1 has been slow coming it would seem.
So to end my giant book post: how do you feel as an n1 user about your experience? The first legit google experience? I am not won over like an iphone fanboy. I am very dissappointed in customer service, and some hardware stuff. But overall I'm happy I made the Android jump. My only conclusion is that my next phone will not be from google dot come slash phone. It will be carrier branded. Rooting means I'll get updates fast anyways, and sales will be so much higher I expect that development will be more active. How do you all feel?
What exactly do you want to be developed? Do you want us Android users to port the lackluster Windows Mobile over to our devices? Is this what you expect?
MOTO Blur can't be correctly ported because of key mapping, and even so the resolution would be off without any current Android devices having MOTO Blur on a big screen, same goes for Espresso. X10 is in the making, as it also has button matching issues. Which are now being figured out.
You seem to be an intelligent person, someone who is smart enough to notice that this phone has been out for less that 4 months - which obviously means there is much to be left discovered. Your post, and this thread, are both pathetic. You act as if developing takes a small flick of the wrist, and as if the developers are not actually "trying" or pushing out more things that tickle your fancy fast enough - exactly what are you expecting? Also, please note that Windows has the ability to boot both Linux and itself, which im sure is a little relevant.
Why don't you wait a little while and see how things play out before making these little rant threads that are not needed..
What else do u want to do that hasn't been done or worked on?
Sent from my Nexus One using the XDA mobile application powered by Tapatalk
I love my Nexus one.
If you buy a phone for what MIGHT come, you've bought the wrong phone.
[QUOTE=trevorwhopkins;6187241 I am very dissappointed in customer service, and some hardware stuffl?[/QUOTE
You had to know you'd be flamed for your thoughts (although all valid opinions), but I can't see how you point out customer service as an issue when you're on your third (I assume free replacement) N1.
Regarding the community and development: I think this time around the community and devs knew what was needed based on prior android custom roms. Things like tethering, multitouch, rotating homescreen, launncher with an extra column, A2SD etc. were all released within a very reasonable timeframe. Then there were things like custom notification colors which didn't take much time to come out, either.
The phone is not perfect, and 99% of my frustrations seem to he simply a design flaw (aka hardware issue) where the normal/comfortable position to hold it creates a false/unintended pressz of the touchscreen resulting in random presses - which many blame software on while never realizing they simply need to adjust how they hold the phone. I learned to adjust, which I think everyone has to do for every phone (learn its quirks and adjust accordingly).
Disappointed? Not at all...overpriced? Maybe...glad I'm still the only one I know who has it? Hell yeah!
Fair post but good luck suggesting to many people at xda that their phone isn't the be-all end-all of mobile device development, its like telling a parent their kid is ugly, there's no reason or objectivity involved so youll be made to look soulless. : )
I personally couldn't care less about xda participation. However I am a little disappointed every time a new bug comes up and it turns out its regarding outdated hardware, in that department I did expect a little more. It's disappointing that we have an old screen and what not, surely Google didn't think users wouldn't discover and discuss the copious problems with the phone...
And I do feel like a beta tester. It does feel like the phone was rushed to the public. But this software is still awesome and ultimately we do have some solid hardware to work with and if Google wants to they can make this phone as stable and pleasurable as they advertised it to be. I am so incredibly curious to know what android has been doing lately, the folks there are historically bad at keeping secrets (thankfully) so they have either tightened security or they have been staring at the wall. I'm guessing the former and I can't wait. For a while after the bugs and shortcomings for this phone began to mount I turned my attention to the iPhone, lucky for android the iPhone OS 4.0 is not impressive. As long as the hardware isn't either, android can string me along for a good while.
I really don't know what to think. Google is making no effort to advertise the phone (for good reason at this point), and they are silent to all of the problems that have come up. I'm starting to think Google wishes the nexus would go away so they could try again...
about nexous one
Let me tell you after owning every phone out there the nexous one is the best and fastest phone i have ever owned period
8525
curve
tour
storm 1
storm 2 both on tmobile
g1
mytouch 3g
iphone 3g
iphone 3gs
HD2
after owning all of those phone i will never go back i love my n1
Look at the g1 its the first android phone and there is hella roms for it just wait and there will be more roms and google will give out more updated witch will make the phone better and better
If you like sinse just get the HD2
YAWN...
You didn't add anything new to what was posted before. It's just a bunch of empty thoughts.
What is it that you want????
As I said before, we have the most up-to-date version of Android already, we can't anything new if we don't fully understand the changes.
This is just about as open a platform as we will ever see, learn to fix/add what you want.
Here is what I ask? At the time the Nexus came out, what phone was better? Iphone... uhm no. Touchpro2... not a chance. Moto Droid? Inferior hardware. The bottom line is, even with a few problems the Nexus has, it is still a top 5 phone, if not the best phone there is. I can honestly say, for T-Mobile, there is not a single phone offered that I would rather have. I can think of ONE other phone I'd consider getting outside T-Mobile and thats a phone that isn't out yet (Evo 4g). Come on man, do you want the phone to mow your lawn for you? It's an incredible device.
Oh and judging the quality of a phone based on sales figures is retarded. I don't care if it only sold one phone, if its a great phone its a great phone.
evilkorn said:
What is it that you want????
As I said before, we have the most up-to-date version of Android already, we can't anything new if we don't fully understand the changes.
This is just about as open a platform as we will ever see, learn to fix/add what you want.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you. Unlike the G1, we aren't trying to backport 2.1 features or build ROMs with as many things working in 2.1 as we can.
People like Sense, good for them. Personally, I don't care for it in the least. I like a few of the visuals of the status bar from it, which is why I kanged them, but I don't really care at all for the rest of it.
I'm running stock right know.. you know why? Because 2.1 is already the best Android experience! Like Eclair said, I don't get what you want right now.. Yes, the G1 and Magic have alot more ROMS out there but most of them are just 2.1 port attempts! They're trying to get what we already have on our phones. Just to further echo some common sentiments, the phone has only been out for a few months whereas the G1 has been out for a year and a half.. Don't worry, the development will come.. You should feel assured in the fact that many of the top G1/Magic devs switched over to the N1, it was one of the reasons I chose the Nexus over waiting for phones like the Desire.
All that said, I definitely am disappointed with a few things: The various hardware issues that have been popping up amongst different users (I personally have the purple tint issue), and the lagginess of the homescreen swiping. While the 2.1 is very fast in terms of app to app switching or web browsing, it lacks the polish that I hoped 2.1 would have (ie. like the iPhone). Yea, I know things like smooth scrolling on the iPhone are just eye candy, but it matters. It's what appeals to the masses.
An example, I have a non-techie friend who has played around with my Magic before (The Magic was running CursorSense). When he first played around with the N1 his first response was "How come this phone is slower than your Magic, I thought you payed $600 for it?".. He was referring to the scrolling. Of course after I showed him a few neat things (live walls, 3d launcher and gallery etc) he changed his mind but the point remains, the N1 doesn't leave the best first impression.
Overall I am happy with it although I feel it is definitely over priced. But the hardware is built for the future so I'm know that the software updates and future xda development will make it an investment that was worth taking!
Obviously the marketing (lack of) cant have helped sales. Putting it out first on Tmo was a mistake because it severly limited its market even among those who knew about it due to the lack of coverage. I think a traditional carrier launch on either AT&T or Verizon would have moved a lot of handsets. I think Google isnt stupid and they knew these things going in so they had their reasons.
Im not getting the slow development complaints. Its been 4 months. None of the other devices I had saw development that was faster in their intial months of release. At least not as I could notice, I freely admit I wasnt counting roms/apps and logging them in a database.
Personally I dont feel qualified to comment in great detail on a phone I picked up yesterday but I can say I dont regret it at all now that I have hardware in hand. It pretty much rocks as is and I for one am confident that good things are coming and its going to get better.
I will be returning my Nexus One to HTC for repair/replacement due to a faulty power button.
My only real gripe with the phone itself is that the power button is used to sleep & wake the device by default. There is no single button more important than the power button, imho, and it was a poor choice for HTC to design it so.
I take that back, the other huge gripe I have about the phone is HTC's decision to embed the radio antenna at the base of the phone where it is covered by the meaty part of the hand while holding the phone to your ear. Maybe they just assumed everyone would use the headset or bluetooth, but I don't. It is annoying to see it drop a bar of signal because I'm holding the phone naturally in the palm of my hand.
Once I get my replacement phone, I will not be unlocking or rooting it. I will be keeping it intact (and possibly sealed) until this summer, when I can see the next gen iPhone in action, and possibly as late as November, as Windows Phone 7 is already shaping up to be pretty slick.
Here are the things I want in my phone:
1. Just works. Most important thing. Dialer, Contacts, Bluetooth, etc. These things should just be a flick of the finger away.
2. Feature-rich. Integrated search, multi-touch browsing and maps, GPS nav, Native Internet Tethering (bugs the **** out of me that Android doesn't offer this OOB still).
3. Business AND pleasure - don't make me choose between personal email and contacts and enterprise features. HTC has saved Google's ass on this one with their amazing Sense framework from the Desire ROM. Exchange with ActiveSync is a MUST. Also where's the love for Blackberry mail server?? I guess Android is not for law firms? /shrug
4. When something says "Full web browsing", if it doesn't include Flash, HTML5, or Silverlight support, that's false advertising.
Other stuff:
I'm starting to write my apps for Windows Phone 7 SDK, I have been writing apps for the iPhone OS (now looking at iPhone OS 4 beta SDK), and I have written a few for Android.
The Windows Phone 7 SDK using Visual Studio 2010 is bread and butter for me -- its perfect. Working with Xcode on the iPhone SDK always felt clunky, and inefficient. Working with Eclipse on the Android SDK has come a *long* way since I started two years ago, and is much easier now than then.
But VS 2010 makes writing apps for WinPhone7 dead simple. I've already ported across my apps from the iPhone and Android platforms without any 3rd party cross-compilers, and it took a very short period of time.
These days it is the ecosystem that drives the market for handheld devices. iTunes made iPod what it is. The iPhone App store with 180,000+ apps made the iPhone platform what it is (we all know it certainly was nice hardware when it was released, but is definitely dated now). The Android Market has been a blessing and a curse for Android. Many solid apps, but no unified Android platform to develop for (to be addressed in Froyo -- or so they say). No single set of hardware to develop for. It's literally like shooting at a moving target. And developing with open source tools is fun for a while, but gets tiresome when there is so much more effort involved in some of the simplest things.
So that's basically where I am personally at. I love my N1. I will be getting it replaced due to hardware failure. I may not use the replacement, and may sell it instead to finance a Windows Phone 7, or possibly (but not likely) an iPhone over the course of the summer.
And before anyone calls me a hater on any grounds: I have used WinMo in the past, I am using Android now, I have good friends who use iPhones and I hold nothing against them for that. I develop my code on a Windows 7 machine, and I am typing this message on my Mac, which boots Win7, OSX, and Ubuntu.
Lastly, I will say this. There is a sad saying in business that "good enough beats best." This means that despite the technology or ability out there to produce unquestionably excellent goods and services, those which are "good enough" and produce a higher profit margin will win. We will likely always feel like we are being forced to accept mediocrity, but fortunately, the devices we have today will still be outshined, outclassed, and outdone by nearly everything to come in the future.
I would say the negative responses I got here are unappreciated and pointless, but then again they were expected and matter as much as my opinion does.
As for customer service... no. I didn't get anything free. My first n1's lcd broke inside my pocket in a restauraunt. The glass and case was perfect. There were tiny cracks in the lcd. I didn't drop it or anything. I really liked the phone, so I bought another. Google and HTC both gave me a runaround about covering it. Twenty minutes into a conversation, 3 steps up the corporate ladder, and and they finally said send it in, charge 500 dollars, and if your lucky we will give it back. The second time, my wife dropped it, which was her fault. As opposed to my TP2, Palm Pre, my sister's G1, which carriers were glad to replace free immediately if they even looked funny.
My point wasnt to repeat the other guys, only to explain my point about us being beta testers and ask how others felt. I expected some of you to defend it all, and some to complain. I was only explaining the things that made me think about it. And I feel that it is pointless for people to jump all over any person that posts a opinionated comment. If your not trolling or begging or complaining to devs, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion.
I didn't want to end up defending WM at all, only pointing out that their community is insanely creative. I have plenty of respect for how hard devs work. It's not the devs work I questioned, but the amount and interest of the dev community in this phone. If I wanted a WM phone I'ld have gotten the HD2. I like Android just fine, although I'ld be happy to jump on a GSM Droid with 1ghz, as I like my keyboards and hate the glare under the sun of OLED.
Also, all I meant to say about the sales numbers was that is just statistics. Chances are the phone with the most users has the most development, as theaudience is the biggest.
I see all of your points, and didnt mean to complain. The point of my post was this:
How do YOU ALL feel about your experience so far?
Thats why I explained overall how I felt with all the stuff we all have seen positive and negative.
love the phone.. but the touchscreen issues are really pissing me off. and the power button is starting to ***** out on me.
I don't regret at all the $$ I paid for Nexus One. It's an amazing phone with a great OS, it has some negatives like any other phone in the universe (battery,ringtones volume and sunlight visibility) but it has so many positives
My ex-SE phones (that I totally loved) look like an old nintendo NES compared to an XboX360
Other than the **** battery, I'm perfectly happy with my N1.
plain and simple... give me a multi-touch screen that actually works the way it should and I would be 100% satisfied with my phone...
I was hoping that the gaming experience on the phone would be much more pleasurable but with how quirky the touch screen is its nearly impossible to have a great experience...
I would say I am about 80% pleased with the experience so far and I came from a t-mobile dash so the tech on the N1 was leaps and bounds ahead of my old phone but given that I had to shell out all that money for the phone means I should have a 100% sexy piece of hardware instead of 80% of one... with a phone that has no physical keyboard, the touch screen should be much higher quality than it is....
my 2 cents...
Trevor, I agree with you.
Face it people, the phone is a disappointment.
Battery= sucks
touchscreen= sucks
can't save apps to sd= sucks
sloppy slow interface = sucks
3g = sucks
2g = sucks
trackball = sucks
hotmail = sucks
still no flash/html5 = sucks
pink blob im my photos = sucks
no gdocs app = sucks
force closing = sucks
no native profile choice = sucks
silent mode still allows sounds = sucks
slow googles response to the above issues = sucks
bunch of N1 fanboys who can't admit that thier N1 sucks = sucks
So I have been giving a lot of thought to this subject ever since reading a few articles a couple of weeks back about the CEO of Google Eric Schmidt saying that they have no plans on making a "Nexus Two." Not only this, but Google stating that they will no longer sell the Nexus One direct and unlocked from the www.google.com/phone store. My question is, does this threaten the Android platform in the future. I personally think it won't because Android will continue to live on, but the open Android that we have come to know and love today will be jeopardized. This is why I decided to start this thread to see how others feel about this subject and ask some important questions about the fate of Android.
To start off we really have to see what Google's Nexus One brought to the world of Android to be able to see what we will be missing if there is no "Google phone" in the future. On January 5, 2010 Google threw a press conference where it called it's new baby the Nexus One a "superphone" and ever since then the i has been in the news having every flaw dissected and blown out of proportion by tech blogs all around the web. Yes, the Nexus One had some big flaws like the multitouch screen, early T-Mobile 3G problems, No multitouch pinch to zoom (now changed), and even the pentile arrangement of pixels on the AMOLED screen, but it also was the first in the smartphone world (unless you count the HD2, but we are talking about Android not WM in this discussion) to have a lot of huge features that now started this Android revolution. It had a powerful Snapdragon 1 Ghz processor (up to this point the biggest we had was the Droid with an Arm Cortex A8 550 mhz processor), 3.7 inch AMOLED screen (WVGA 800x480 pixels) , 512 mb of RAM (most had 256mb RAM), 5mp camera (with LED flash and 720x480 video capture), and one of the lightest (130 grams with battery), sleekest 119mm heidth by 59.8mm depth), and thinnest (11.5mm) phones on the market. The Droid paved the road and the Nexus One showed OEM's what the top of the line Android phone must have to compete in specs. The Nexus One launched with Eclair 2.1 and was the first to bring it to the world. A couple months after launch Google gave pinch to zoom multitouch to the Nexus One and this allowed other phones like the Droid and now most of the Android phones available to get this much desired feature. Perhaps one of the best features of the phone was that it launched with an unlocked bootloader and introduced the world to the adb command "fastboot oem unlock." I know that are beloved developers have been unlocking the full potential of phones since the Windows Mobile days, but Android has brought that even further. Since then the Nexus One has quickly become the dev phone of the Android world. If you don't like a feature simply change it or flash a different ROM. This wonderful world that the great developers in the Android community work so hard to bring to us is really the "killer feature" of the Android OS and this is being threatened by not having anymore "Google phones." Lately we are seeing companies like Motorola and Verizon using eFuse to lock down their phones and keeping people that spend their hard earned money from flashing ROM's. I am sure the whole eFuse thing has been blown out of proportion and I am sure the next Android superstar (or one of the many we already have here on XDA) will unlock the Droid X to it's full potential, but the mere fact that these companies are locking down phones using the FREE Android OS is very disheartening. We don't want the same cat and mouse game that Apple and their iPhone customers have to play to unlock and use their phones and this is one of the many reasons people flock to the open Android OS.
Not only do we risk "locking down" the platform, but by not having any further Nexus phones we will more than likely never see another Vanilla Android phone. Instead we are seeing what the OEMs and wireless providers want us to see and this is evident in the losing of WiFi tethering in the latest build of Android 2.2, or known as Froyo. If a wireless provider doesn't want a feature (like tethering) the OEM's are then pressured into leaving it out to make them happy. This is not a good thing in my opinion as it again puts the power and fate of Android in the wireless providers like Verizon and AT&T where we are quickly losing the openness of Android and the ability to even side load applications. This is exactly why we need a phone like the Nexus One. A phone that will push the boundaries of innovation and keep the wireless companies honest by simple competition. They won't leave an important feature out if the Google phone already has a version of it out and available unlocked. Without Google making a phone we are left with whatever skin the OEMs have minus the features the wireless companies don't want included. If the Nexus One would not of been released we would be stuck with minimal upgrades and even worse what would make the OEMs and providers hurry with the newest release (Froyo in this case and soon to be Gingerbread)? If Google wouldn't of pushed Android 2.2 to the Nexus One then would all the companies like HTC, Samsung, and Motorola even be racing to get Froyo out? In my opinion the Nexus One is the only reason that these companies are trying to get 2.2 out in a timely basis. I mean I may be wrong as I am not a developer, but what would really make the OEMs and providers want to hurry with their releases if they didn't have the competition? I think it would be the opposite and these companies would make us buy their newest and top of the line Android phone just to get the newest and best Android release. This has been proven in the past and if it wasn't for the iPhone and Google's Android the smartphone world would be a very different place filled with Bada OSs, Windows Mobile phones, no app stores, and worse of all mediocre upgrades. This is the real reason we need Google to release a phone so they can take the fate of Android (and the power, in my opinion) away from greedy wireless companies and OEM's that only look to sell us a phone multiple times a year.
I have really given a lot of thought to this because ever since I purchased my Nexus One back in March (without AT&Ts permission, I should add) I had planned on buying a "Google phone" every year. I was aware that Google would work closely with different OEMs and we would get a great dev phone every year with the latest and greatest Vanilla Android, free from the clutches of wireless contracts, and most of all "OPEN." This was a great idea and I can see why Google's idea of selling a phone didn't catch on here in the states, but they accomplished a lot more than selling millions of devices like Apple does. They accomplished (along with the Droid, which I might add Google had a big hand in creating and bringing to life, and also was free of a locked bootloader) bringing Android to the masses and making the statement to companies that a top of the line Android phone needs to have these specs to compete in the Android world.
I just went out and bought me a Samsung Captivate and to be honest the first thing I thought I would get rid of was TouchWiz, but it has kind of grown on me. I think HTC Sense is nice as well, but I will always be a Vanilla Android fan and there is something about the Nexus One that always brings me back. This will be a phone that I will not ever get rid of and is still the best phone I have ever owned. I am sure many others feel the same way and the Nexus One will continue to be a niche kind of product, but I think I have made the argument that Google needs a phone to further Android and keep the fate of it's Android in it's hands. This could get out of control quick and it could turn bad. We are just nearing the top and Android is here to stay and will be the OS that everyone else attempts to mimic. Come on Google I know I am not the only one that feels this way and this is why I started this thread to get the feel of others in the Android community as I am sure there are others that are worried as well. The open Android that we know and love today is in jeopardy if Google doesn't maintain a little control over their Android OS. The OEM's and wireless companies are going to ruin the openness of Android if they don't have a constant pressure keeping them honest. One of the main reasons that Android has grown so rapidly is that a company like Google has created it to be free, open, and common to many phones so we don't have to worry about dozens of companies with mediocre platforms. Weigh in and let me know how you feel and maybe just maybe we can get someones attention. Feel free to copy this on other forums as I feel we need to save the idea of an open Android. One without the boundaries of no side loading of apps, eFuses, locked bootloaders, and most of all innovation and the advancement of the Android platform.
Google's own line of phones phone has zero influence on the android os.
JCopernicus said:
Google's own line of phones phone has zero influence on the android os.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, you are right, but without a Google phone what will Android be like? We won't see another Vanilla Android phone that is for sure.
Not being able to see into the future makes this a hard statement to take as fact.
There were vanilla phones before nexus one and there will continue to be more
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
If you want a true vanilla android phone grabe one of HTC's china phones, not even google apps are on it. =D
I agree with the basic premise that the Nexus One did provide leverage to potentially (and I think that is a key qualifier) keep the competition honest, but it isn't clear that it would do so without significantly more marketing. And, to market the Nexus One more could have annoyed some of the vendors that Google wants to keep happy - lots of happy vendors means lots of seats for Android means lots of seats off of which Google makes a lot of money. In particular, if every Android phone is locked, then Google still makes a mint, though they stand to make more of a mint if the platform is more widely adopted. And, an open phone does have an impact on platform adoption, but I don't think it is that critical since the public is used to buying fixed feature-set phones and upgrading for new features so this isn't an issue of taking away something that they demand as it is failing to give them something that they would come to know and love (as we already do).
But, I also want to counter some of the supporting arguments you present.
First, the current wave of smartphones was headed here one way or another. Google didn't create the wave, they simply reacted and targeted Android at the capabilities that were coming down the pike. To do that most effectively they needed a new developer phone and the Nexus One was going to be released in January one way or another as the ADP3 until they had this idea to sell direct. It was simply them needing to get out a testbed for the new Android capabilities that were targeted at the new baseline smartphone hardware and they chose to do it in an experimental new way this time. If they hadn't released the Nexus One direct to consumers then you would have seen the same phones come out and you would have seen the same OS releases, you just wouldn't have had a large installed base of end users previewing it on a non-developer handset.
Second, I think the main factor spurring the vendors to get 2.2 out quickly is that it offers so much, not that they have to keep up with the Nexus One. It is, in my opinion, the biggest release so far (and I've been with Android since 1.0) primarily because of the JIT. Also, all the manufacturers came out with what would become the new standard amount of RAM (512MB) and the existing release available for them to ship on did not support it, so they need to get on 2.2 in order to simply unlock the hardware they originally designed. In some sense, these phones were really designed for 2.2 - 2.1 was simply a stepping stone to get them shipped on their hardware schedule until 2.2 was ready on its software schedule. So, there are really 2 factors that would encourage them to get 2.2 out on their 2010-class phones that have nothing to do with the Nexus One being here.
As far as vanilla phones... The G1 was vanilla. The original Droid was vanilla (is it still vanilla with the latest releases?). The Nexus One was vanilla. But, where there any others? I love my vanilla phones (first G1 then N1), but I don't mind value added by the vendors, I just wish they would make it easier to customize things away and that they would learn to design their add-ons so that they can be easily dropped on to a new Android release with little fuss...
Short answer: No. It does not.
Simply put, there will always be a phone that will have Vanilla Android. If for nothing more than using that as a sale point. Especially with Andy 3.0 in the horizon which focus is on the UI. No worries.
Of course it doesn't.
Simple answer, no. There have always been vanilla Android phones, the developer phones at least, and there will always be developer phones. In fact, the Nexus is still for sale now as the latest developer phone.
Eventually there will be another vanilla Android phone that Google is behind, unless they get their own hardware built by someone and don't sell it publicly... but that wouldn't make much sense, just like it wouldn't make any sense for them to not ever have another phone.
Soon enough, the 2ghz and dual-core phones will be out, and eventually mobile devices will catch up to computers in terms of power. They're gonna have to.
I'm sure they will come out with a different dev phone in the future.
I agree with the op, up to a point. While it may be true that there'll always be a phone Google gets behind -a 'dev' phone, if you will- I think it still limits choice for people who want the vanilla experience. Is it really ok to just have one phone that's vanilla?
To the op: "If the Nexus One would not of been released...."
I think you mean "had not been released..."
and: "If Google wouldn't of pushed Android 2.2 to the Nexus One then...."
It's "If Google hadn't pushed Android..."
Sorry for the pedantry. Bad grammar just spoilt a good, well-thought out post.
Consumer are what they are a android is one of the greatest os I have experience.all those problems was soft ware issue and minor only something a child would complain about.i have a nexus almost went with a nokia n900 glad I didn't .proud of google.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
As some of you may have heard Google has brought out Motorola. Although the deal isn't 110% it's getting there.
Google and Android seem to pride themselves in being open, which, Motorola and it's bootloader policy are not.
I know it's a shot in the dark but hopefully we as a community can get our case known with Google and hopefully for them to release the keys to our devices.
This thread is about ideas on how to put our case forward to Google, and I don't mean spamming their social networking accounts with "FREE TEH BOOTLOADER" at least, not yet. Ideally, I would like to be as formal as possible (such a writing up and getting you guys to sign an agreement about why you want the bootloader unlock, how it would effect our user experience as well as how it would embrace the Android way of thinking - even that we would sign away our right to a warranty).
What do you guy think?
reply
wid u mahn !!!!!
had exactly the same idea the moment i heard the news. I would propose some kind of petition. Also maybe we can add comments to the official anouncement in Google blog, in an educated and informative way.
in the past 5 months I tried the following:
HTC Hero, Galaxy Vibrant,Motorola Atrix 4G, My touch 4G, Nexus 1, Sony Ericsson X8, Blackberry torch, HTC HD7 & went back to Milestone (in fact I have 2 now)..
I must say that main advantage for Milestone is two things I admire:
- fancy material & great design
- brilliant developers like Kalabadan, Feeo & Lucka
Upon trying unlocked devices such as HTC devices I found out that even for such popular Cyanogen is not that advance compared to Kalabadan work (you can check it out through xda) meaning you need both futures to get perfections (good set specifications & brilliant developers)..
Google acquiring Moto is a great news hoping our brilliant developers to stick with it.
alijs said:
in the past 5 months I tried the following:
HTC Hero, Galaxy Vibrant,Motorola Atrix 4G, My touch 4G, Nexus 1, Sony Ericsson X8, Blackberry torch, HTC HD7 & went back to Milestone (in fact I have 2 now)..
I must say that main advantage for Milestone is two things I admire:
- fancy material & great design
- brilliant developers like Kalabadan, Feeo & Lucka
Upon trying unlocked devices such as HTC devices I found out that even for such popular Cyanogen is not that advance compared to Kalabadan work (you can check it out through xda) meaning you need both futures to get perfections (good set specifications & brilliant developers)..
Google acquiring Moto is a great news hoping our brilliant developers to stick with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well Said brother Well said
a Representative should contact google
You guys need someone high ranked within XDA to prepare a short request concerning the milestone issue and send through the proper channels.
I don't know what are the proper channels, but they can be searched on google site.
In addition, I don't see why not to contact Google through G+.
Unlike Motorola, it is quite easy to contact the higher ups at Google.
Now, to the statement, any ideas on how we should start it?
Also, I would like to point out this;
"Once the acquisition is approved (later this year or early 2012), there’s one thing we know will happen to Motorola for sure: the company will continue to function just as it does now. Motorola CEO Sanjay Jha and his team will continue to lead Motorola independently from Google. Larry Page emphasized this over and over in both the blog post and conference call. “We will run Motorola as a separate business,” said Larry Page. Both companies will even have separate finance reports.
In other words, you can expect to see more of the same coming from Motorola — at least for the time being. Sadly, this means MOTOBLUR and locked bootloaders aren’t dying anytime soon. That might change in the long-term, once Google has more control over the company. But for now they’re here to stay."
http://androidandme.com/2011/08/new...ould-happen-to-motorola-after-google-buys-it/
DannyDroid said:
In other words, you can expect to see more of the same coming from Motorola — at least for the time being. Sadly, this means MOTOBLUR and locked bootloaders aren’t dying anytime soon. That might change in the long-term, once Google has more control over the company. But for now they’re here to stay."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is really verry sad, I love the hardware that motorola builds but if there is no change in this politics my next device will be from someone else.
I still hope that there will be changes once the deal is done, I love my Milestone.
There is still hope out there.
Maybe we get some leak with signing tool or keys..
They had promised to unlock the bootloader at the end of 2011 before google got into the game. I did not believe them (or they would unlock it with 6-12 months further delay), but now just maybe they keep their promise and unlock the devices when they said they would...
DannyDroid said:
As some of you may have heard Google has brought out Motorola. Although the deal isn't 110% it's getting there.
Google and Android seem to pride themselves in being open, which, Motorola and it's bootloader policy are not.
I know it's a shot in the dark but hopefully we as a community can get our case known with Google and hopefully for them to release the keys to our devices.
This thread is about ideas on how to put our case forward to Google, and I don't mean spamming their social networking accounts with "FREE TEH BOOTLOADER" at least, not yet. Ideally, I would like to be as formal as possible (such a writing up and getting you guys to sign an agreement about why you want the bootloader unlock, how it would effect our user experience as well as how it would embrace the Android way of thinking - even that we would sign away our right to a warranty).
What do you guy think?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree and will support your idea. Count on me for any help.
Is it useful to build a facebook page with name: UNLOCK BOOT LOADER, MOTO!!!? If yes, I will do that.
alijs said:
in the past 5 months I tried the following:
HTC Hero, Galaxy Vibrant,Motorola Atrix 4G, My touch 4G, Nexus 1, Sony Ericsson X8, Blackberry torch, HTC HD7 & went back to Milestone (in fact I have 2 now)..
I must say that main advantage for Milestone is two things I admire:
- fancy material & great design
- brilliant developers like Kalabadan, Feeo & Lucka
Upon trying unlocked devices such as HTC devices I found out that even for such popular Cyanogen is not that advance compared to Kalabadan work (you can check it out through xda) meaning you need both futures to get perfections (good set specifications & brilliant developers)..
Google acquiring Moto is a great news hoping our brilliant developers to stick with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Agree!
_crAss_ said:
They had promised to unlock the bootloader at the end of 2011 before google got into the game. I did not believe them (or they would unlock it with 6-12 months further delay), but now just maybe they keep their promise and unlock the devices when they said they would...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you have any reference for their promise????
i'm with you guys.
There is a good chance that Motorola will change some of their policies by Google's influence, and we hope they start unlocking the bootloaders.
But i think a strong petition by the community will help alot.
Sent from my Milestone using XDA Premium App
_crAss_ said:
They had promised to unlock the bootloader at the end of 2011 before google got into the game. I did not believe them (or they would unlock it with 6-12 months further delay), but now just maybe they keep their promise and unlock the devices when they said they would...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Motorola never said such a thing. They did however say that start unlocking some handsets depending on unknown to the public factors.
As per the title says, just so happen to check the Lenovo forums today after reading here they released TPT source yesterday and sure enough the K1 source was released this morning!
Direct Link
http://download.lenovo.com/lenovo/content/sm/IdeaPadTablet-K1.zip
Link to the Thread
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/IdeaPad-Slate-Tablets/Android-Source-Code/td-p/610273/page/5
Hopefully our humble and dedicated developers can tear this apart and start on some custom ROMS, maybe even kernels?? (I have high hopes clearly!)
On a side note, might not be worth mentioning, but I did notice that the source for the K1 was roughly 72mb in size while the TPT source was in upwards of 202mb?? Same compression for both, food for thought...
Robert
Great news ....the building blocks have arrived
Sent from my HTC Evo 3D with Beats Audio X515m using XDA App
Now hoping for some love, the stock android is pretty slow and painful.....
Will be nice once the custom kernels come.. hopefully they will..
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA App
Thats awesome news, man!!!!!!! I didnt think lenovo would do it but wow, its a start.
Hopefully we can get some sweet roms and kernels on this bad boy (k1).
Just based on this news alone, I have ordered for one..
Sent from my HTC Vision
rezapatel said:
Just based on this news alone, I have ordered for one..
Sent from my HTC Vision
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bad choice, hardly any support and current android 3.2.1 on it is buggy for the two that we own, stutters a lot.
Be Prepared for this lengthy response!
twe69 said:
Bad choice, hardly any support and current android 3.2.1 on it is buggy for the two that we own, stutters a lot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree even with the latest update, there are still bugs in the OS Lenovo loads on this tablet but this should not be a driving force with not buying one. Every tablet I've owned (K1 and the GTablet) or had the chance to tinker with (Xoom, Prime, etc...) have had their flaws, but I also feel this is also based on the user and their personal preferences with using their tablet. Not to mention, what that user would be using the device for (as a toy, or daily driver) has a huge amount to do with it.
What's important here is that they are all running on some form of an Android OS, and if you are willing to tinker and sometimes even experiment with your tablet, you will be able to get to some middle ground (depending on the device, its release date, the community following it has, and when/if the source code is released) based on what you are trying to get out of that particular device to where there are little to no issues.
http://rootzwiki.com/topic/13407-alpha-ideapad-k1-cwm-stock-rooted-rom-120109-build/
For me, I'm currently running the Alpha 3 CWM rom from rootzwiki (link above) and besides I think 1-2 FC's (ONLY happened upon uninstalling pre-loaded apps) it's ran smooth as silk! Granted, I use my K1 as mainly a 'toy' for experimenting with Android SDK, flashing ROM's and general tinkering but still...
Now, you could just drop the $400-$600 on an iPad and not have to worry about FC's and other bugs but then you're left with not only an extremely restricted device but a restricted device that you paid way more for when compared to the K1 for example. Don't get me wrong, after getting my first tablet (GTablet) I quickly realized the quality of the products Apple releases to the consumer public, and if you are a member of that 90%+ percentile of the public that just wants a device to work and doesn't plan on doing anything else to it (and possibly not being as computer savvy as that 5-10% percentile) Apple is the way to go. However atleast from my experiences with the iPad/iPhone, if you plan on doing any modifications remotely resembling base mod's that can be done on an Android device, you're either threatening your warranty or simply SOL.
In short, when I buy an Android phone/tablet I will never expect it to run flawlessly out of the box because A. I'm personally anal/picky/OCD with my hardware and B. I bought it for that initial time investment in order to have a device strictly tuned to my lifestyle and means of use. For this reason alone, an Apple product will never satisfy me (again nothing against anyone who does use Apple, just my 0.02).
I'd rather have a device that is cheaper to buy with arguably the same hardware specs or comparable and is finicky (to say the least at times), but has the potential to run whatever I can throw at it smoothly and most importantly to personalize it on levels that Apple would never allow on their products simply for fear of creating instabilities.
For the K1 however, Lenovo releasing the source is the 1st step towards achieving your own perfectly tuned and personalized device however long it might take. Afterall, one crucial characteristic of an Android user that majority of the members on this forum share is patience! It's what separates us from the rest!
Sorry for the long post, I just felt like expressing my opinion and I was in the typing mood.
Dueces99 said:
I agree even with the latest update, there are still bugs in the OS Lenovo loads on this tablet but this should not be a driving force with not buying one. Every tablet I've owned (K1 and the GTablet) or had the chance to tinker with (Xoom, Prime, etc...) have had their flaws, but I also feel this is also based on the user and their personal preferences with using their tablet. Not to mention, what that user would be using the device for (as a toy, or daily driver) has a huge amount to do with it.
What's important here is that they are all running on some form of an Android OS, and if you are willing to tinker and sometimes even experiment with your tablet, you will be able to get to some middle ground (depending on the device, its release date, the community following it has, and when/if the source code is released) based on what you are trying to get out of that particular device to where there are little to no issues.
http://rootzwiki.com/topic/13407-alpha-ideapad-k1-cwm-stock-rooted-rom-120109-build/
For me, I'm currently running the Alpha 3 CWM rom from rootzwiki (link above) and besides I think 1-2 FC's (ONLY happened upon uninstalling pre-loaded apps) it's ran smooth as silk! Granted, I use my K1 as mainly a 'toy' for experimenting with Android SDK, flashing ROM's and general tinkering but still...
Now, you could just drop the $400-$600 on an iPad and not have to worry about FC's and other bugs but then you're left with not only an extremely restricted device but a restricted device that you paid way more for when compared to the K1 for example. Don't get me wrong, after getting my first tablet (GTablet) I quickly realized the quality of the products Apple releases to the consumer public, and if you are a member of that 90%+ percentile of the public that just wants a device to work and doesn't plan on doing anything else to it (and possibly not being as computer savvy as that 5-10% percentile) Apple is the way to go. However atleast from my experiences with the iPad/iPhone, if you plan on doing any modifications remotely resembling base mod's that can be done on an Android device, you're either threatening your warranty or simply SOL.
In short, when I buy an Android phone/tablet I will never expect it to run flawlessly out of the box because A. I'm personally anal/picky/OCD with my hardware and B. I bought it for that initial time investment in order to have a device strictly tuned to my lifestyle and means of use. For this reason alone, an Apple product will never satisfy me (again nothing against anyone who does use Apple, just my 0.02).
I'd rather have a device that is cheaper to buy with arguably the same hardware specs or comparable and is finicky (to say the least at times), but has the potential to run whatever I can throw at it smoothly and most importantly to personalize it on levels that Apple would never allow on their products simply for fear of creating instabilities.
For the K1 however, Lenovo releasing the source is the 1st step towards achieving your own perfectly tuned and personalized device however long it might take. Afterall, one crucial characteristic of an Android user that majority of the members on this forum share is patience! It's what separates us from the rest!
Sorry for the long post, I just felt like expressing my opinion and I was in the typing mood.
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great read excellent points
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Dueces99 I shall check out that rom, will see if its possible for me since I am on the latest official version....
I did have a Blackberry Playbook with the original OS in December and that was much better for web browsing etc. Just hoping that Android 4 will have less issues on the tablet since I will be keeping the Lenovo....
Oh and I have been with Android for over 2 years since Android 1.5 and about 5 android phones..... So yeh I am patient
Will definitely pay attention to the next iteration of Windows Mobile though when I upgrade at the end of the year since I like the responsiveness of Windows Mobile 7/7.5.....
this is great news.. really think of selling mine for 300 or so.... if it still worth that ( 32 gb model) .. i might hold on to it now that the source is release and ( cross fingers) someone ports CM9 to it...
we can only wish...
lenovo said they will release ics for k1
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/IdeaPad...m-Sandwich-for-Ideapad-K1/td-p/638437/page/17
Apologies for the radio silence on this... we have been in discussion with our product teams and shared all the interest and feedback received here.
I believe the current outlook is that a plain version (sounds like it will not include the Lenovo customizations ) of ICS will be made available for download sometime in June. This is a bit later than the original May schedule and will not be pushed as an OTA (over the air update).
I appreciate everyone's patience - I know you have been waiting a while for an update on this.
Thanks
Mark
One line in the article is scary. A nightmare revisited perhaps? That "WP8 will be supported for at least the next 18 months."
That is what a year and half? MS is known to release an update anyways not before a couple of years. So does that mean that the support of the "flagship" WP8 devices terminate even before the devices are launched?
LUMIA 900 is perhaps an example that we should be careful??
Your views?
Sent from my RaZr NeXus.
circleofomega said:
..."WP8 will be supported for at least the next 18 months." ....
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Hmm.... Only Connor MacLeod, the Highlander is immortal. The lifetime of the rest stuff (including me, you and Windows) - is limited. Are you going to live forever?
You currently don't get any guarantees for longer support on any mobile platform. Apple does support it's devices longer but it is not guaranteed in any way and the iPad 1 is left out of iOS 6 although it is not that old.
The 18 months was also a plan Google announced on the IO conference last year which many manufacturers failed to live up to.
My guess (according to several interviews with Microsoft employees) is that they will not do a change to the system that goes so deep again anytime soon (where would they move as they now switched to the Desktop OSs underpinnings?). It still is a given that at some point in the future your device again won't be getting updates.
The question you are posing is if those 18 months could mean that if I buy a WP8 in 16 months it might get left behind 2 months later. Those 18 months which are guaranteed are based on the age of the device (when it was first released). A Lumia 900 kind of situation should therefore not happen again. That your device might no longer receive updates before your contract is up might happen, given that you might a) not buy the device the day it comes to market and b) the contract is regularly 6 months longer than the time frame for updates.
Where is the source with the original quote? A quick Google gives me the quote: "Microsoft will support Windows Phone 8 devices [with updates] for at least 18 months" (My emphasis).
http://www.technobuffalo.com/compan...-will-offer-ota-updates-18-months-of-support/
bbobeckyj said:
Where is the source with the original quote? A quick Google gives me the quote: "Microsoft will support Windows Phone 8 devices [with updates] for at least 18 months" (My emphasis).
http://www.technobuffalo.com/compan...-will-offer-ota-updates-18-months-of-support/
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I can kind of see what your saying but then you could argue (especially Google) that not many devices actually get support for 18 months, So if you go and buy a new WP in Oct/Nov then it will be supported for 18 months. Unlike new Android phones, Microsoft is not fragmentated (not including WP7.8). This means ALL first gen WP8 will be supprted. New Android phones come out on a weekly basis and is NEVER guranteed to get the latest Android update (unless its a Nexus).
You could argue both ways...
I believe Microsoft will be looking after 1st Gen WP8 early adoptors, but with things changing in the world of tech who knows?
I will probably get a new WP8 and a WinRT tablet to work alongside my Xbox and my Laptop... that is an ecosystem that not even Apple can rival!
mafu6 said:
I can kind of see what your saying but then you could argue (especially Google) that not many devices actually get support for 18 months, So if you go and buy a new WP in Oct/Nov then it will be supported for 18 months. Unlike new Android phones, Microsoft is not fragmentated (not including WP7.8). This means ALL first gen WP8 will be supprted. New Android phones come out on a weekly basis and is NEVER guranteed to get the latest Android update (unless its a Nexus).
You could argue both ways...
I believe Microsoft will be looking after 1st Gen WP8 early adoptors, but with things changing in the world of tech who knows?
I will probably get a new WP8 and a WinRT tablet to work alongside my Xbox and my Laptop... that is an ecosystem that not even Apple can rival!
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Hmmm..when its android I don't fear much...for obvious reason that I can root it and flash the latest OS. Not so much so with WP8. For it, I only and only have to rely on MS.
So if they decide tomorrow that my device doesn't have the necessary hardware (deja vu?), I'm screwed...
That, was my fear...
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
The chances of that happening are pretty slim.
WP8 got a huge update over WP7 (i do not use the term huge lightly), which made the incompatibility stuff a problem.
Unless some huge leap in technology happens in the nest 18 months or so, we won't see this kind of problem again. It is highly likely that current wp8 will run wp9.
I for one don't think hardware will advance at such quick rate in the coming years.
mafu6 said:
I can kind of see what your saying but then you could argue (especially Google) that not many devices actually get support for 18 months, So if you go and buy a new WP in Oct/Nov then it will be supported for 18 months. Unlike new Android phones, Microsoft is not fragmentated (not including WP7.8). This means ALL first gen WP8 will be supprted. New Android phones come out on a weekly basis and is NEVER guranteed to get the latest Android update (unless its a Nexus).
You could argue both ways...
I believe Microsoft will be looking after 1st Gen WP8 early adoptors, but with things changing in the world of tech who knows?
I will probably get a new WP8 and a WinRT tablet to work alongside my Xbox and my Laptop... that is an ecosystem that not even Apple can rival!
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It's not an argument though is it. It's simply the facts.
Google doesn't support Devices for a variety of reasons - Not least of which is that it's freeware OS, and there are several hundred devices with new ones each week.
MS have said that they will support devices for 18 months, and this is achievable, there will be maybe 50 of them by the time 18 months is up, and the manufacturer (and so in the end user) pays for the OS.
circleofomega said:
Hmmm..when its android I don't fear much...for obvious reason that I can root it and flash the latest OS. Not so much so with WP8. For it, I only and only have to rely on MS.
So if they decide tomorrow that my device doesn't have the necessary hardware (deja vu?), I'm screwed...
That, was my fear...
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These type of comments mystify me. Of the following announced WP8 features which ones were you expecting to get on your current phone?
Multi-core processor support
1280x768 and 1280x720 screens
removable MicroSD cards
NFC wireless sharing
This is about indervidual devices not Windows Phone 8 itself! They are saying that from when a phone comes out you will have at least 18 months support (far more than anyone else promises) this does not mean that WP8 will be chopped up like 7! They switched kernel that's why you cant upgrade and they did that to be sure they have last ability.
U miss the point.
18 months is fine if it was Android. But WP8? From their track record, 18 months qualifies for one upgrade.
But not like other devices where even first gen phones enjoy the very last update...(how they perform is all together another argument).
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
Given that Microsoft is not going to change the Kernel again (where too - they are now running the Desktop OS on mobile devices) at least the community here will likely be able to provide those updates. Given that the original Developer phones like the LG panther have been able to receive at least OS updates using the CAB-Sender-Method this might be an option going forward.
But if it's ok for you to have the new version of the OS running in a kinda working way, with kinda weird problems and kinda annoying glitches it might be an option to go with Android. I'm running CM9.1 on my SGS2 which works without problems but it's one of their stable releases and they recently decided to ditch support for older devices with the Snapdragon S1 (which is also found in the 1st Gen WP7 devices). There are still ports around for those devices but with those it is like I mentioned above (glitches, problems, etc.)
In the end smartphones age quickly and at some point it is not really viable keeping them updated even though more than 18 months are definitely doable (but as was mentioned: no one guarantees you that it is a good experience).
circleofomega said:
U miss the point.
18 months is fine if it was Android. But WP8? From their track record, 18 months qualifies for one upgrade.
But not like other devices where even first gen phones enjoy the very last update...(how they perform is all together another argument).
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If your were responding to me, then I miss the point again. I literally don't understand most of what you've said or the meaning - sorry.
Do Android phones get official updates 18 months after release? Not even all of the new release Android phones have the latest OS version.
What does "But WP8? From their track record, 18 months qualifies for one upgrade." mean? WP7 was released 2 years before WP8 will be released and all current WP7 phones will get WP7.8 which itself is not being released until after WP8 and may not be until next year, so that's well past 18 months. Also MS have stated that WP7 was a stop gap until WP8 was done, so a major OS change is not going to happen.
"But not like other devices where even first gen phones enjoy the very last update" Which phones and OS are you talking about? Apple don't have the latest OS on their oldest Iphones, and new Android phones don't all have the latest OS either. You've really confused me...
Are you complaining that MS will only guarantee to support all devices for only 18 months, while lauding the other OS makers who do less) because XDevs try to do it for them?
bbobeckyj said:
If your were responding to me, then I miss the point again. I literally don't understand most of what you've said or the meaning - sorry.
Do Android phones get official updates 18 months after release? Not even all of the new release Android phones have the latest OS version.
What does "But WP8? From their track record, 18 months qualifies for one upgrade." mean? WP7 was released 2 years before WP8 will be released and all current WP7 phones will get WP7.8 which itself is not being released until after WP8 and may not be until next year, so that's well past 18 months. Also MS have stated that WP7 was a stop gap until WP8 was done, so a major OS change is not going to happen.
"But not like other devices where even first gen phones enjoy the very last update" Which phones and OS are you talking about? Apple don't have the latest OS on their oldest Iphones, and new Android phones don't all have the latest OS either. You've really confused me...
Are you complaining that MS will only guarantee to support all devices for only 18 months, while lauding the other OS makers who do less) because XDevs try to do it for them?
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Wasn't exactly talking to u...but since u replied:
Yes..no other OS supports older devices. Be it iOS or Android. BUT, having said that, it is as easy as turning your computer on when it comes to updating those devices..
It is..er..unethical to an extent...but who cares...I have the latest OS.
BUT, but...when it comes to WP, there is no way out. The fate of THAT device hangs in thin air. If MS decides to pull the plug, game's over.
So even though iPhones and Androids of the world see an (unofficial) update. Not so much so a WP device....
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
circleofomega said:
Wasn't exactly talking to u...but since u replied:
Yes..no other OS supports older devices. Be it iOS or Android. BUT, having said that, it is as easy as turning your computer on when it comes to updating those devices..
It is..er..unethical to an extent...but who cares...I have the latest OS.
BUT, but...when it comes to WP, there is no way out. The fate of THAT device hangs in thin air. If MS decides to pull the plug, game's over.
So even though iPhones and Androids of the world see an (unofficial) update. Not so much so a WP device....
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
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I am really confused by this post. What you are saying is that because MS make PC's and you can update a PC they should update ll there phones forever even though nobody else does? You claim its ok for android to do it because we can hack the updates on? How would that be diff from doing it to wp??? Name me one WP that is not on the latest OS version! There isn't one.
How is MS supporting your device for its life span a bad thing esp when Android comes out outdated most of the time yet that's fine. How is having a guarantee of updates leaving you out in the air????
Total garbage so do us a favor and engage the brain instead of just being a hate monger Android fan boi
lumpaywk said:
I am really confused by this post. What you are saying is that because MS make PC's and you can update a PC they should update ll there phones forever even though nobody else does? You claim its ok for android to do it because we can hack the updates on? How would that be diff from doing it to wp??? Name me one WP that is not on the latest OS version! There isn't one.
How is MS supporting your device for its life span a bad thing esp when Android comes out outdated most of the time yet that's fine. How is having a guarantee of updates leaving you out in the air????
Total garbage so do us a favor and engage the brain instead of just being a hate monger Android fan boi
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U got me all wrong my friend. I'm just saying, giving it a date "18 months" was a little scary.
Secondly I don't like Android anymore and love WP8.
MS isn't supporting my device for the lifetime and that's my worry...
Hope I'm clear now...
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
circleofomega said:
U got me all wrong my friend. I'm just saying, giving it a date "18 months" was a little scary.
Secondly I don't like Android anymore and love WP8.
MS isn't supporting my device for the lifetime and that's my worry...
Hope I'm clear now...
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
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How long do you keep your phone? I heard of 2 year contracts but who actually keeps it for that time without buying out? Even if so you get guarantee of 18 months not a maximum of 18months most likely you will get longer but they have to cover themselves. Also as you said before MS is more prone to big updates hence a big one each year with a smaller in the middle meaning that you should get your 18 month update that should last until the 2 years is up before the next is out anyway. I think that covers most life of phones as it covers most contract lenghs and is far beyond what the competition is doing.
circleofomega said:
Wasn't exactly talking to u...but since u replied:
Yes..no other OS supports older devices. Be it iOS or Android. BUT, having said that, it is as easy as turning your computer on when it comes to updating those devices..
It is..er..unethical to an extent...but who cares...I have the latest OS.
BUT, but...when it comes to WP, there is no way out. The fate of THAT device hangs in thin air. If MS decides to pull the plug, game's over.
So even though iPhones and Androids of the world see an (unofficial) update. Not so much so a WP device....
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
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WP have unofficial custom roms. The only reason that IOS and Android have more is because more people are making them, and you can't blame MS for that, especially while they guarantee to provide official updates.
bbobeckyj said:
WP have unofficial custom roms. The only reason that IOS and Android have more is because more people are making them, and you can't blame MS for that, especially while they guarantee to provide official updates.
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Oh my goooood....I'm misunderstood thrice in a row...IM NOT BLAMING MS...it's just a question..."IS" WP8 live short too??? Its a question... anyway
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
circleofomega said:
Oh my goooood....I'm misunderstood thrice in a row...IM NOT BLAMING MS...it's just a question..."IS" WP8 live short too??? Its a question... anyway
Sent from my DROID RaZr.
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Then the answer is no, it is not to short.
lumpaywk said:
Then the answer is no, it is not to short.
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Thanks.. that is the reply I'm looking for...
Sent from my DROID RaZr.