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Hi all,
I am 2and a half months into a contract on an Orange SPV M2000 on a £25 per month contract, I paid £250 for the phone and have had problems from day one. They have replaced the handset 3 times since then because of the phone not ringing when a call is made and at this moment I am awaiting yet another replacement. I have been offered the SE P910i as a replacement but this is a phone that I can get for free on a £25 per month contract elsewhere and is not as expensive as my M2000. I have also paid £60 for an SD card that cannot be used in a SE P910i. I have also lost work because of the faulty phones. Even though Orange have admitted that I have had a series of faulty phones they will not make true remuneration or let me cancel my contract. I am therefore stuck between a rock and a hard place and as such am forced to continue paying my line rental even though I have had a series of faulty phones that I cannot use. Can anybody tell me how I can sort this out and if I have any rights in this case.
Tell them you want a free upgrade to the M5000 when it is released.
take the SEp910 then sue them for the £250 - five minutes on www.moneyclaim.gov.uk
Timax45:
I'm a litigation lawyer in the UK in The Real World, and I'd say that this is a clear breach of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 with respect to your service contract, and the Sale of Goods Act 1979 with respect to the supply of the faulty phone.
Have a quick look here:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/supplyofservices.htm
and here:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/salegoodsact.htm
Look at Which!'s website or google for how to complain on this basis.
However, basically, rattle your sabre with the Operator - speak to their disconnection department (for Orange 0800 079 22 88 ) and demand that they end your contract and (if you feel ballsy) refund your used months' rental, but not your used minutes, stating that the phone and service provided has failed to be "as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for their purpose". If they refuse say you will speak to Trading Standards.
If you pay by credit card, they will also be liable for bollocking Orange.
Let me know how it goes.
V
vijay555 said:
Timax45:
I'm a litigation lawyer in the UK in The Real World, and I'd say that this is a clear breach of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 with respect to your service contract, and the Sale of Goods Act 1979 with respect to the supply of the faulty phone.
Have a quick look here:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/supplyofservices.htm
and here:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/facts/salegoodsact.htm
Look at Which!'s website or google for how to complain on this basis.
However, basically, rattle your sabre with the Operator - speak to their disconnection department (for Orange 0800 079 22 88 ) and demand that they end your contract and (if you feel ballsy) refund your used months' rental, but not your used minutes, stating that the phone and service provided has failed to be "as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for their purpose". If they refuse say you will speak to Trading Standards.
If you pay by credit card, they will also be liable for bollocking Orange.
Let me know how it goes.
V
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A couple of things to consider though:
1) there are two contracts, one over the phone and one over the network. the network contract ontains terms which deny right to service. I understand these are not contrary to UCTA.
2) the contract over the phone is as against the supplier not the network although in this case it sounds as though both are orange.
the most important thing though is this info: it will cost orange several hundreds to instruct someone like vijay plus counsel to defend a claim. they will not defend your claim and so you will be paid.
now go here and issue a claim: www.moneyclaim.gov.uk
sainthalo - I don't think there's an indication that there's a problem with "service" in the mobile phone network sense, ie he can get coverage and use a phone, if the phone worked. Is that correct Timax45? All operators cover themselves from promising you perfect network service.
However, with respect to the phone, that's clearly a problem. I agree with saint to make a claim, but just prior to that I'd ring orange and tell them that you are about to commence a claim if they refuse to stand up to their legal obligations.
Throw around some serious sounding words and they should at least pass it on to someone who can take your issue seriously.
To cover your back you should write to them (letter, not email ideally) and tell them you are about to start a claim as a result of their failure to comply with their legal obligations in breach of the contract. I'm sure www.moneyclaim.gov.uk should help out with the claim itself.
V
vijay555 said:
sainthalo - I don't think there's an indication that there's a problem with "service" in the mobile phone network sense, ie he can get coverage and use a phone, if the phone worked. Is that correct Timax45? All operators cover themselves from promising you perfect network service.
However, with respect to the phone, that's clearly a problem. I agree with saint to make a claim, but just prior to that I'd ring orange and tell them that you are about to commence a claim if they refuse to stand up to their legal obligations.
Throw around some serious sounding words and they should at least pass it on to someone who can take your issue seriously.
To cover your back you should write to them (letter, not email ideally) and tell them you are about to start a claim as a result of their failure to comply with their legal obligations in breach of the contract. I'm sure www.moneyclaim.gov.uk should help out with the claim itself.
V
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Hi vijay glad we agree that he has little legal bases in claiming for the service element). However if he adds up days lost and works out value of tarriff paidthat was wasted he can add this to the claim since this claim would not be determined on legal merit but settled out of financial convenience.
You are quite right he should send notice of intention to commence proceedings. However many people find this an incredible hardship! If so then in this instance when the claim amount is low and given orange will not defend it and will not pay on the basis of a personal notice then you can skip the formality of notice especially given the matter will not get to trial so the minor procedural defect will not be of consequence.
Lets hope our friend with the grievance actually commences proceedings although I have to say, without smiting him, that most people don't even when they have been fortunate to get professional advice from someone like yourself.
I have been searching the forum trying to find a good software to watch TV with. I want to add a little more to my device and try to watch episodes that I cant normally watch while I'm at work.
What are some good softwares I can use to watch TV with? I found Sling and looking up another called "Orb". I have no experience with either. Can someone educate me if you have experience?
Are there more out there that I have not ran across?
Thanks in advance!
orb is excellent, check it out ! (but make sure you are on an unlimited dataplan, and you have 3g in your area.
I do have an unlimited dataplan but I dont have 3g (not in area yet)?
Will 3g make any difference?
Thanks for the reply!!
Kenjari said:
I do have an unlimited dataplan but I dont have 3g (not in area yet)?
Will 3g make any difference?
Thanks for the reply!!
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a huge difference mate, GPRS is around 50 Kbps ( a tiny grainy postage stamp for a pic and mono sound)
3G starts at 384 Kbps and maxes out a 1200 Kbps on the athena and means full screen decent quality pics and stereo sound !!
PS since upgrading to Ap 4.0 I am having a problem with this, it works but the video (windows media video) is very stop start, where as on AP 2.0 I got fluid full motion video in TCPMP
Makes since. Well I can only wait until Tmobile get 3G hopefully soon! I have been struggling with TCPMP and Windows Media since the upgrade to AP4.
Kenjari said:
Makes since. Well I can only wait until Tmobile get 3G hopefully soon! I have been struggling with TCPMP and Windows Media since the upgrade to AP4.
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if you dont mind my asking, where are you ? here in the uk Tmob have fairly good 3g coverage
I'm in Minnesota over in the US. I have read talks about Tmo getting 3G but I called yesterday after i read your post and they said they have plans to launch it this year. But he didnt know when.
i also read that in other states they already have it up. A little confused if that was accurate information or not!
Thanks for asking!
Makes me want to move to the UK!
trust me, you dont wish you live here, the only reason we have 3G coverage is that in comparison to the US, it is cheap to set up here, as the country is so small and densely populated, did you know that London is only around 30 miles across but home to around 7 million people, This pressure on land makes housing cost stupid amounts here.
plus we pay around $9.85 for a US Gallon (3.79 litres) of diesel
OMG I cant believe that many people live in such a small area. That make since about the inexpensiveness of 3G.
Wow...we complaining about 3.99 per gallon here. I cant believe gas is that much. I'm certain we will be there in 12 months, in less we find away to do something.
What would an average 1 bedroom cost in London? It cant be a crazy amount is it?
Well maybe I will come visit first!!!!
Kenjari said:
Wow...we complaining about 3.99 per gallon here. I cant believe gas is that much.
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Try it here in CT for 4.40 per gallon of regular gas, and that's the cheapest.
...
If CT is paying 4.40 per gallon. Then it is around the corner before MN get over 4.10.
I wonder who is paying the most in the US? Clearly we arent where London is or are we?
Kenjari said:
OMG I cant believe that many people live in such a small area. That make since about the inexpensiveness of 3G.
Wow...we complaining about 3.99 per gallon here. I cant believe gas is that much. I'm certain we will be there in 12 months, in less we find away to do something.
What would an average 1 bedroom cost in London? It cant be a crazy amount is it?
Well maybe I will come visit first!!!!
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in a really bad area, around $250,000 ~$300,000 and at the other end of the scale the sky is the limit, roughly $1,000,000 or more.
see for yourself, this is an example of one of the best area's in london, 99.9% of the normal people that live in london can't afford this, but renting a 1/2 bedroom flat will set you back around $20,000 per month
http://www.belgraviaestateagents.com/
the normal price for renting a 1/2 bedroom flat is $1000 ~$2000 per month, I pay $1400 for mine. but I live just outside london.
but at least mobile phone calls are cheap, the cheapest being 1100 anytime any network minutes or texts for $40 per month
I learn something everyday!!
I never knew it cost this much to live in London. Following your link, some of the flats were going for 3,500. I dont know what that would cost in dollars!!!
When i clicked on "buying" I saw some houses stating 'Leasehold 63 years' or 'Leasehold 193 years'. Excuse my ignorance...but what does that mean?
I'm also curious about the general demographics of who occupies these sky is the limit areas or the really bad areas? Are there families? College students? Single business owners? Political statesmen? Who live in these areas in London?
LOL £3500, is the per WEEK rental value and at current exchange rates, it is 2 dollars to the pound, so that is $7000 per week or $28,000 per 4 week month.
However apart from feb we don't have any 4 week months, so to get the true monthly value they multiply the weekly figure by 52 (weeks in the year) and then divide by 12 which is $30,333 per month.
Im not 100% on the following as I rent, but as far as I know, When you buy a House in the UK you are litteraly buying the house only, IE the bricks and mortar ! with regards to the actual land the house is sitting on, you are leasing it, houses normally come with a 99 or 999 year lease bundled in with the cost of the house (measured from when the lease was last renewed not when you purchased the house) , if you buy a house and the lease expires, you dont have to move out (infact you are protected from being forced out by law) however you do have to start paying the lease holder rent, (even though you fully purchased your property several decades before) obviously this is not a desireable situation, and if there are only a few years left on the lease, it will have a serious negative effect on the value of the house !
And with regards to who lives where, people just buy what they can afford ! you have famillies with 2 kids or more living in 1 bed flats in really bad areas and the uber rich businessman/woman using the multi million dollar house or flat in central london as a boarding home, just somewhere to stay by him/herself during his/her week in work before heading back out to the countryside to spend the weekend with the family.
The average wage in the uk is around £28,000 ($56,000) people in london are supposed to get more to absorb the higher cost of living but a lot don't even earn the average, to buy a home in the UK, the banks have just gone back to the good old days stipulating you can only borrow 3 times your wages (if your by yourself) , which means nobody on average wage in london, can buy any properties FULL stop (unless they have a mammoth deposit). you have to be earning around £45,000 ($90,000) and have the usual 10% deposit if you want a shot at purchasing a £150,000 ($300,000) 1/2 bedroom flat.
My goodness, the cost is crazy. The average or medium is clearly not in support of home buyers, (sounds exactly like here) but was is the home buying market look like there? Meaning....are people buying? Is the market ripe for it in conjuction to people's ability? What about you down the line....do you who hope to buy a home there in London for your family or maybe stay on the countryside?
Are there other places that use a different formula to calculate rent?
If rent cost that much, even for a flat, what is the homeless situation in London? Have the banks ever financed buyers, single or not, where they gave more then three times the yearly salary? Are there other programs that will support buyers outside the bank? gov., corp, etc.
Sorry for having a lot of questions.....this is just interesting to me! Besides, I'm trying to observe more or less the parellels between the states and your hometown.
Thanks ice_coffee
Kenjari
My goodness, the cost is crazy.
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On top of that whenever you buy a house you pay stamp duty (a form of tax) for the house purchase, due to the high prices the govermet eliminated stamp duty for houses below £120.000 ($240 thau) wich is ridiculous due that the average U.K house price approaches £200 thau, then you got council tax (average £130 per month)...I stop ranting about the staggering number of taxes but I really would like to know how Spain France or Germany manage to have first class National health, public transport and council services (compared with those here) and the fourth rich country in the world does not manage.
In the other hand
Unemployed people can apply for housing benefit and income support (the rent paid and a meager amount of money every 2 weeks to help them keep going) single mums and people without income can apply for coucil houses and pay nil
NHS is free as in beer
Buses are free for children and the eldery....there are more benefits, and yes there are homeless some people abuse the system and the system is a mess but just say that in other parts of the world the needy gets nothing.
London is a sprawl rather than a concentration ( more LA than Newyork) Given the chance people will live in garden houses rather than flats, in flats will live however cannot afford a house or profesionals that can aford the £500000+ Luxury pad with river views plus the home at the country and profesionals that use a small flat during work days to avoid long conmmuting, an hour conmuting to work is the norm.
just an anecdote, an american couple both layers and her daugter came on holidays and wanted to see Nothing Hill, they liked the area as charming but after enquiring the price of one house the guy commented, "my god a million pounds for a place that fit inside of my garage"
Welcome to London
and now I better get back on topic
The housing market here has just come out of a massive boom period, where they were giving everybody mortgages, and I really mean everybody, they copied the US companies by giving out N.I.N.J.A mortgages to people with N.o I.ncome N.o J.ob or A.ssets or giving people 6 times their salary with no deposit, this pushed the house prices up, as supply could not meet demand. Now that this boom is over and house prices are falling, there are lots of peeps with mortgages they can't afford, having their houses repossessed. The banks are stuck with repossessed homes that they have to sell for less than they paid for them, which is why ALL the banks have gone cautious again, back to the old days of 3 times your mortgage and deposit upfront !
My fiancé and I are saving a 10% deposit at the moment, we are at £15,000 ($30,000) but we need to get to £30,000 ($60,000) so we can buy a house, we will probably stay where we are, I work nights all over London on the underground rail network, so traffic is not a problem for me, plus it is really nice where I live.
There are homeless people in London, but there are also volunteer organisations to look after them, plus the government will give free accommodation to those who apply for it as mentioned by PBL1! although it would be really crappy accomm and in a bad area and if your a single man you will be waiting years as pregnant teenage girls (thrown out by their parents) get to jump the queue!
There are some part buy schemes where you buy a percentage of a property and another organisation buys the rest and you pay them rent for their portion (this equates to a lower monthly outgoing but adds years to how long it will take for you to own outright !
also if you are a KEY worker (Medic, Police, fire etc etc) the government will put you in discount nice accommodation, any new build housing complexes have a percentage of the homes/flats dedicated to key workers only with heavy discounts.
Feel free to ask questions, that is what forums are for !
tv
orb is cool, or you ould download dvd fab and down conver dvds to lower format like mp4 o avi so there saller size nd load movies or tv shows you own you know whatever
I'm waiting to see more news on this
http://www.nokia.com/NOKIA_COM_1/Pr...ata_sheet_Nokia_Mobile_TV_Receiver_SU_33W.pdf
Is a nokia dvb-h bluetooth receiver, so the software would have to be adapted to windows mobile.
and also
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2008_Feb_11/ai_n24255349
see it in gizmodo
http://uk.gizmodo.com/2008/02/12/dab_bluetooth_headset_somethin.html
Because the manufacturer is working on this also
http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Feb2006/2630.htm
I know is DAB and the dongle is not the pretiest but show promise
If only somebody released a device like the Nokia thing for WM6 devices.
I know this is on a couple of forums already but i really want to get as much coverage as possible and given the content I hope you can all forgive me for the spam:
please take a moment to sign the petition:
http://www.petition.co.uk/unlimited-data-fair-use-policy-removal
please please sign this and pass it on to as many people as possible.
This is to petition Ofcom to get communication providers to remove the word unlimited from their product descriptions where a fair use policy exists.
The oxford dictionary describes the word unlimited as:
1 not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent:
If you are sold a product as unlimited that is what it should be, companies should no longer be able to use unfair practices enforcing restrictions when their product contains the word unlimited.
I urge everyone in the UK to sign this petition and stop companies falsifying their advertisements to sell their products.
As an example:
BT option 3 broadband unlimited has a fair usage policy of 100GB per month, logic dictates then that option 3 is 100GB and not unlimited.
Let’s stop ISP's from doing this no matter if it's home broadband or a mobile data plan.
Let’s get clarity in what we pay for and not allow companies to get away with it anymore!
vote with your money ... dont pay a goon force isp who does things like this and blocks sites
just a small bump as this got moved and some may not have seen it.
Does anyone have any information on when Foxfi will be working again for phones with KitKat? My app broke when i updated to KitKat.
Have you tried emailing the app maker?
KidJoe said:
Have you tried emailing the app maker?
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i have, and they have yet to respond. it doesn't work. hoping someone comes up with a workaround as i'm trying to see how long i can go without rooting this phone.
640k said:
i have, and they have yet to respond. it doesn't work. hoping someone comes up with a workaround as i'm trying to see how long i can go without rooting this phone.
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My post on another forum below. I've been emailing the creator/current holder of FoxFi and they're incompetent.
FoxFi does NOT work on Verizon. It asks for credential passwords (of which there is no answer for) or to enable native tethering which just results in a subscription check. I've brought this to the Foxfi developer's attention, and it's not been fun. We've exchanged multiple emails back and forth and it seems I'm dealing with someone who doesn't understand English or is just bad at reading. They keep answering everything but what I ask. First they said I can update to Kit Kat and FoxFi wifi tethering would work - false. I replied telling them this and also explained that FoxFi is asking for a credential password after having me create a lock screen with password (also new). Their reply - I can remove the lock screen by entering the wrong password 5-10 times. Again, not even close or relevant to what I asked. I'm just about done speaking with them and wouldn't consider buying FoxFi if support can't even be bothered to respond coherently.
Yazzinit said:
My post on another forum below. I've been emailing the creator/current holder of FoxFi and they're incompetent.
FoxFi does NOT work on Verizon. It asks for credential passwords (of which there is no answer for) or to enable native tethering which just results in a subscription check. I've brought this to the Foxfi developer's attention, and it's not been fun. We've exchanged multiple emails back and forth and it seems I'm dealing with someone who doesn't understand English or is just bad at reading. They keep answering everything but what I ask. First they said I can update to Kit Kat and FoxFi wifi tethering would work - false. I replied telling them this and also explained that FoxFi is asking for a credential password after having me create a lock screen with password (also new). Their reply - I can remove the lock screen by entering the wrong password 5-10 times. Again, not even close or relevant to what I asked. I'm just about done speaking with them and wouldn't consider buying FoxFi if support can't even be bothered to respond coherently.
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thei VPN certificate is supposed to bypass the check. i had this working on 4.2.2, before the KitKat update came. I suspect the additional security layers added with 4.4 negated the effectiveness of their solution. It is possible they haven't even started testing with the latest version.
640k said:
thei VPN certificate is supposed to bypass the check. i had this working on 4.2.2, before the KitKat update came. I suspect the additional security layers added with 4.4 negated the effectiveness of their solution. It is possible they haven't even started testing with the latest version.
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I have it working on another VZW phone(HTC One) running a 4.4 Sense ROM so it may be directly related to something with the Moto X 4.4 update. Have you tried the PDA+ app. I know they are essentially the same company now but previously it worked for me when the actual Foxfi app didnt. I should have be Moto X sometime early next week(hopefully:fingers-crossed so I will give it a go myself and report back.
mademan420 said:
I have it working on another VZW phone(HTC One) running a 4.4 Sense ROM so it may be directly related to something with the Moto X 4.4 update. Have you tried the PDA+ app. I know they are essentially the same company now but previously it worked for me when the actual Foxfi app didnt. I should have be Moto X sometime early next week(hopefully:fingers-crossed so I will give it a go myself and report back.
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if you go to pdanet/foxfi's site, it specifically says that wifi tethering is through/from the actual foxfi app, so i have no confidence that pdanet will work any better than foxfi on its own.
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640k said:
if you go to pdanet/foxfi's site, it specifically says that wifi tethering is through/from the actual foxfi app, so i have no confidence that pdanet will work any better than foxfi on its own.
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It was merely a suggestion based on my past experience with both apps but ok
PDANet only works on usb tethering for VZW 4.4. The FoxFi part doesn't work, as I posted above. The developer (also as I mentioned above) is pretty incompetent so I'm not holding my breath on a fix and wouldn't recommend buying it after the responses I've gotten. Seriously, they constantly fail to read my questions and I'm not the only one. Another person on another forum (not sure if I can mention it here?) has said the same thing.
I accidentally upgraded to KitKat after having my ultra for only 3 days. Verizon wouldn't help me roll back to jellybean or let me exchange my phone (without paying a restock fee) I agreed to pay the fee and switch for another ultra still running jellybean but the vzw rep said it would be a waste of money because vzw is going to push the update and I eventually won't have an option. So I'm stuck paying my $39 hotspot fee when I was getting the use of my hotspot free on my DNA. I power two TV streaming media boxes, two tablets and my laptop. My average monthly GB usage is around 600gb. I have a 4 and 5 yr old who stream Netflix cartoons to their rooms all day. And never a glitch. So for $30 I shouldn't complain...however it really bothers me that Verizon made me upgrade and now an app I paid for is useless.
Yazzinit said:
PDANet only works on usb tethering for VZW 4.4. The FoxFi part doesn't work, as I posted above. The developer (also as I mentioned above) is pretty incompetent so I'm not holding my breath on a fix and wouldn't recommend buying it after the responses I've gotten. Seriously, they constantly fail to read my questions and I'm not the only one. Another person on another forum (not sure if I can mention it here?) has said the same thing.
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PDANet also works on bluetooth for Verizon 4.4. Not as fast as WiFi and smaller range, but if you don't want to root or tether with a USB cord it is your only option.
---------- Post added at 06:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 PM ----------
candi.ultra.girl said:
I accidentally upgraded to KitKat after having my ultra for only 3 days. Verizon wouldn't help me roll back to jellybean or let me exchange my phone (without paying a restock fee) I agreed to pay the fee and switch for another ultra still running jellybean but the vzw rep said it would be a waste of money because vzw is going to push the update and I eventually won't have an option. So I'm stuck paying my $39 hotspot fee when I was getting the use of my hotspot free on my DNA
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Ok, so you want Verizon to help you violate their TOS?
candi.ultra.girl said:
I power two TV streaming media boxes, two tablets and my laptop. My average monthly GB usage is around 600gb. I have a 4 and 5 yr old who stream Netflix cartoons to their rooms all day. And never a glitch. So for $30 I shouldn't complain...however it really bothers me that Verizon made me upgrade and now an app I paid for is useless.
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LOL! No, you shouldn't complain AT ALL.
You are pissed because you get to use 600GB of wireless data per month for the price of your $29.99/mo unlimited data plan but now a $5 app is useless to you? It is the data hogs like you that are going to result in Verizon putting an end to the unlimited data plans for all of us.
And you have a 4 and 5 yo who stream Netflix cartoons in their rooms all day *smh* Where did you go to parenting school?!?!? Oh, wait, that is right anyone can have a child no matter how crappy of a parent they are. Get your kids off of their boob tube habit, lady!
This has got to be one of the most unbelievable posts I have ever read. I can't believe you are for real.
waste of time
Yet you took the time to respond? Is this a parenting forum? Are u even a parent? /useless defending myself but I've got time if you do.
Thanks for your nasty attitude and offering no help at all. Maybe you can tell me how I am violating the TOS? Vzw is aware of my data usage. The FCC rules they can't cap my data right? I get what I pay for. If u were a parent you would know that just because the TV runs doesn't mean they are glued to it. They attend a private christian academy and here in Rural Ga it costs more than my mortgage, car notes and utilities, so I try to get more for less anyway I can especially when I pay for the phone and service. We don't subscribe to cable or satellite and I clip coupons too, they also eat ice cream for breakfast would you like to bash me for that? If you dont have anything productive to add then why be so rude? I have been with Verizon for 15+ years since it was cellular one. Don't even get me started on how this huge conglomerate is screwing over its customers...I have a right to use the phone I paid full price for and the unlimited data that came with the original contract I signed with them in any way I see fit. Data hog or not. Your rude opinion is not needed. Just any technical advice. I purchased pda.net in 2007 for around $19 and the same serial # activation still work from junefabrics. Its not the apps fault it is VZW trying to screw customers.
candi.ultra.girl said:
Yet you took the time to respond? Is this a parenting forum? Are u even a parent? /useless defending myself but I've got time if you do.
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Of course you do; your kids are staring at Netflix watching cartoons all day so what else do you have to do, lol!
candi.ultra.girl said:
Thanks for your nasty attitude and offering no help at all. Maybe you can tell me how I am violating the TOS?
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By tethering without paying the extra fee.
Now, having said that, as I post all over the internet all of the time, Verizon can't stop you from using an app to do that because of the terms of their block C licenses. But that doesn't mean it doesn't violate their TOS; it does. They just can't enforce their TOS by stopping you from using that app.
But guess what they can do once your contract expires? Drop you as a customer for violating their TOS.
candi.ultra.girl said:
The FCC rules they can't cap my data right?
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NO!!!!!!! That is NOT what the FCC rules say. The FCC rules say that Verizon can't stop you from using an app. But it doesn't mean that isn't a violation of their TOS. And it doesn't mean that they can't pressure Google or the phone manufacturers into closing exploits that allow apps to allow you to violate their TOS. What they clearly can't do is pressure Google to remove those apps from the PlayStore. That they can't do.
I violate Verizon's TOS. However, I don't ask them to help me to do it nor do I get angry at Verizon when they won't help me to do it. That is the point that is ridiculous to me. You want them to help you violate their TOS and are angry that they won't, lol!
candi.ultra.girl said:
If u were a parent you would know that just because the TV runs doesn't mean they are glued to it.
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I was remarking on what you said. You said they stream Netflix cartoons all day.
candi.ultra.girl said:
They attend a private christian academy and here in Rural Ga it costs more than my mortgage, car notes and utilities, so I try to get more for less anyway I can especially when I pay for the phone and service. We don't subscribe to cable or satellite and I clip coupons too, they also eat ice cream for breakfast would you like to bash me for that?
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Clipping coupons doesn't deprive me of anything. Being a data hog by using 600GB of data a month risks depriving all of us who have unlimited data ultimately.
Verizon does not have to continue to allow us to have unlimited data. People like you risk ruining it for all of us. Shame on you!
candi.ultra.girl said:
I have a right to use the phone I paid full price for and the unlimited data that came with the original contract I signed with them in any way I see fit.
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OK, you clearly didn't go to law school, but hey, you stick your kids in front of a TV all day so I wasn't thinking you were very educated.
First - that contract expired long ago. Verizon can at any time after a contract expires refuse to renew it at those terms. That is clearly in the contract. So no, you do not have any "right" to the terms of the original contract once it expires.
Second - it is Verizon's position that data is a feature and not part of the contract anyhow and that they can change your data plan at their whim. Whether or not they have a legal leg to stand on with that argument is a complex legal argument that depends not only on federal law but the choice of law provisions in Verizon's TOS and one that you would never be able to grasp no matter how clearly I explained it to you.
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These are the FCC rules that are being discussed here in case anyone is trying to follow this:
47 CFR 27.16
(b) Use of devices and applications. Licensees offering service on spectrum subject to this section shall not deny, limit, or restrict the ability of their customers to use the devices and applications of their choice on the licensee's C Block network, except:
(1) Insofar as such use would not be compliant with published technical standards reasonably necessary for the management or protection of the licensee's network, or
(2) As required to comply with statute or applicable government regulation.
600GB of data runs the risk of giving Verizon the argument that they can cut you off under 47 CFR 27.16(b)(1). Now having said that, there is this:
(c) Technical standards. For purposes of paragraph (b)(1) of this section:
(1) Standards shall include technical requirements reasonably necessary for third parties to access a licensee's network via devices or applications without causing objectionable interference to other spectrum users or jeopardizing network security. The potential for excessive bandwidth demand alone shall not constitute grounds for denying, limiting or restricting access to the network.
So they can't do it if the only reason is the potential for excessive bandwidth demand, but it opens the door for them to argue that it jeopardizes other users on the network depending on the network traffic. Now so far Verizon hasn't tried to make these arguments because they have been successful in getting people off of their unlimited data plans. But we will see how this all plays out over time.
However, someone who thinks they should get all of their internet, TV and video through their $29.99 Verizon data plan to the tune of 600GB/mo so that they can send their kids to an overpriced private school is over the top and jeopardizes unlimited data for all of us.
1- The kids are at the aforementioned school.
2- I am educated. I have a BS in Justice Administration from Georgia Southern University. And I know it doesn't mean much but I also have an Associates degree from a community college in Early Childhood education. Why must you make things so personal? Do you have no life other than belittling people on a Tech advice forum? You obviously have trouble comprehending what I stated- just because the TV is on and streaming doesn't mean the kids are stuck in front of it, like I said obviously you are not a parent. Yet you continue to harp on that.
3- Back to the only thing that really pertains to you hijacking this thread- I havent researched as much as you but as to the FCC ruling in which I was referring:
"Verizon defended its tethering fee explaining that customers with unlimited data plans were able to share their data with an unlimited population of wireless devices and such activity was bound to have negative operational effects on its network.[10] Verizon implemented the tethering fee in hopes of supplementing the cost of the additional data the customer would be sharing among multiple devices.[11] This in itself makes sense to most consumers, however, the issue lied in the fact that Verizon was also charging the $20 tethering fee to customers whose data plans were limited, hence, these customers were being charged extra for using only what they had already paid to use![12] Furthermore, Verizon was also limiting access to tethering apps for its customers by requesting Google to make tethering apps invisible from its Android application market on Verizon’s C Block customers’ phones.[13]
The FCC began investigating the matter in 2011 and after preliminary inquiry, Verizon decided to settle without admitting any fault, agreeing to pay $1.25 million to the Department of Treasury in exchange for the termination of the investigation.[14] The FCC touted the settlement as a message that “compliance with FCC regulations is not optional." That came from rctlj dot org (can't post links) for verification I fan message it to you
I know that is for tethering...but if I opt to buy an app that means I don't have to "tether" but can connect wirelessly then I think the same would apply.
candi.ultra.girl said:
That came from rctlj dot org (can't post links) for verification I fan message it to you.
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Here is the actual FCC consent decree that is binding on Verizon:
FCC Consent Decree
Doesn't say you can tether without paying a fee and doesn't say that you can use as much data as you want when you have an UDP. It says Verizon can't pressure Google to remove tethering apps from the PlayStore. Verizon voluntarily then started offering the Share Everything plans, which allow free tethering. Note that Verizon still does not allow free tethering on not only unlimited data plans, but any of the capped data plans on the older, grandfathered plans. It is only the new Share Everything and now the More Everything plans that have free tethering.
Also, nothing in any contract you signed with Verizon says they have to offer you unlimited data after the contract expires and you go month-to-month. They are doing that for public relations reasons and because they have been able to get people voluntarily off of unlimited data plans by refusing to give us subsidized phones.
But 600GB a month usage is why they want people off of unlimited data plans. There is not infinite bandwidth. Maybe none of your neighbors are on Verizon, but a lot of mine are and if we all used that kind of data through our tower, our data speeds wouldn't even be able to support video streaming.
And I linked you to 47 CFR 271.6, which is the federal regulation that governs Verizon's Block C licenses. It also doesn't say you can tether without paying a fee nor does it say you can use as much data as you want when you have an unlimited data plan. Rather, it says Verizon can stop you from using apps that objectionaly interfere with other network users' use of the spectrum under the provisions of 47 CFR 27.16(b)(1), which in turn is further spelled out in 47 CFR 27.16(c)(1).
We will see how this all plays out. For now enough people have been moved off of unlimited data plans that Verizon is still letting us keep them but who knows how long that will last if the data hogs overburden the network.
If you feel Verizon is violating the Consent Decree or the terms of their Block C licenses by not allowing you to tether for free, complain to the FCC and see what they say.
Also keep in mind that Apple DOES block tethering for free in iOS and refuses to allow apps that can circumvent these restrictions in the App Store. Apple is allowed to do that since they are not the licensee of any Block C spectrum. Google could do it, too for the same reason. It is just that Verizon can't pressure Google or Apple to do it.
And remember, you are using 600GB a month and are not even willing to pay $60 for it ($29.99 UDP + $30 hotspot fee), which would only be 10 cents per GB! Instead, you want to pay 5 cents per GB. Wow, that takes the cake on being cheap!
Instead of being angry at Verizon you should be thanking them for only charging you 10 cents a GB for data!!!!
candi.ultra.girl said:
however it really bothers me that Verizon made me upgrade and now an app I paid for is useless.
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I usually don't like to add fuel to a fire but... If you still have unlimited data, be thankful that you didn't get forced onto a tiered data plan. at 600gb per month, that would get pricey. At one time the $29.99 Hot Spot feature had a 5gig limit. I'm not sure did they finally remove the cap?
On a side note, if you purchased a developer edition Moto X, Droid Maxx, or other DE Moto phone, you'd still be able to root and tether, even with Kit Kat. Maybe not via FoxFi, but you could do it.
KidJoe said:
If you still have unlimited data, be thankful that you didn't get forced onto a tiered data plan. at 600gb per month, that would get pricey.
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Yes, on tiered data she would be paying $5980 per month just for her data use since the 10GB tiered plan is $80/mo and overages are $10/GB!!!!!!
Even paying the $30 hot spot fee, she is only paying 10 cents a GB!! She is angry at Verizon that she can no longer pay 5 cents a GB!!!
Good grief! Wireless data was not meant to be used to stream media throughout an entire house like that, filled obviously with people who watch WAY TOO MUCH TV! And it is the data hogs like her who are going to ruin it for all of us reasonable UDP users. She is avoiding paying for dish or cable TV and using her kids school as an excuse.
Cozume said:
Good grief! Wireless data was not meant to be used to stream media throughout an entire house like that, filled obviously with people who watch WAY TOO MUCH TV! And it is the data hogs like her who are going to ruin it for all of us reasonable UDP users. She is avoiding paying for dish or cable TV and using her kids school as an excuse.
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I'm not going to comment on the "way too much TV" part... I'm not there..
I can say using the 6ABC app to watch the news during power outages the first few days of Feb I used about 16gig in 2 days. And I didn't watch constantly, only a few news casts. So I could see data adding up for streaming movies and other shows.
KidJoe said:
I can say using the 6ABC app to watch the news during power outages the first few days of Feb I used about 16gig in 2 days. And I didn't watch constantly, only a few news casts. So I could see data adding up for streaming movies and other shows.
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yes it can - the wireless phone networks were not meant to support replacing your cable provider so you can watch TV throughout your house using your phone's data plan.
And to be indignent at Verizon for doubling the cost of data from 5 cents to a whooping 10 cents a GB when other network users pay $10/GB (which is 100 times more than what she is paying even with the hot spot fee) instead of thankful they let her keep her UDP, well that takes the cake!
Cozume said:
...the wireless phone networks were not meant to support replacing your cable provider so you can watch TV throughout your house using your phone's data plan.
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Yup, and that is why cell data has ALWAYS cost more than "wired" data like cable, fios, DSL, etc.
Stopping Network Abusers: An Open Letter to T-Mobile Customers
FYI.
Thanks, Biker1.
Biker1
Today, 05:46 AM |#15
Senior Member3,404 posts Thanks: 1,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by graysooner
Stopping Network Abusers: An Open Letter to T-Mobile Customers
FYI.
The link is down.
I'm linking to it here:
http://newsroom.t-mobile.com/issues-...rk-abusers.htm
It's MY data. I will do with it as I please.
Your data? You own the cellular towers and the wireless spectrum?
Good for T-Mobile. Hope they catch all the jokers who abuse the system
Really glad T-Mobile is going this route. At least they found a way to keep Unlimited and not cut it out completely like AT&T and Verizon did (not that I use it, anyway) and I'm glad they're taking measures to make sure that the rest of us don't have to deal with congestion or unfair practices commited by others.
I mean, if i pay for unlimited data then tethering shouldn't be seen as a huge problem...
Sometimes i need a large file to be stored/opened on my desktop computer. I could download the file onto my phone over LTE and then just transfer the file from phone to computer, or i could tether my connection and avoid waiting the time it would take to transfer the file from one device to the other. The point being - if i pay for unlimited data then i'm definitely going to use as much as i want. I do not have an internet connection at my house currently as i'm moving out very soon, however i still like to watch Netflix in my downtime/before bed/etc. I would still be using my unlimited data to stream shows or movies if i were to watch things on my device but i would rather WiFi tether so that i can cast it to my chromecast. I'm not using any MORE data than i would if i had not tethered.
I understand T-Mobile would be mad because they're not making money off an additional service they charge for convenience. But it doesn't necessarily mean i'm abusing the unlimited 4g that i pay monthly for.
So, since he didn't say what "technology" they "now" have, I will take a wild guess and assume T-Mo will blindly shoot those messages out to folks who "exhibit" signs of tethering. Unless they packed another sniffer into the FW, there is not much they can do, especially if one uses a vpn service. I may be wrong, so share whatever knowledge you have.
I too question how they're going to find out who's "abusing." But I agree with their fight against the abusers. It is not cool to pay $30/mo for unlimited LTE data and use it as your primary home internet connection when T-Mobile didn't intend for it to be used that way. They still have truly unlimited for a reason, along with all their other un-carrier moves. They're trying to make the industry better for consumers. Don't take advantage of the one good wireless company we have.
Snakecharmed said:
Your data? You own the cellular towers and the wireless spectrum?
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Oh you sweet summer child...
---------- Post added at 10:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 PM ----------
Nitemare3219 said:
I too question how they're going to find out who's "abusing." But I agree with their fight against the abusers. It is not cool to pay $30/mo for unlimited LTE data and use it as your primary home internet connection when T-Mobile didn't intend for it to be used that way. They still have truly unlimited for a reason, along with all their other un-carrier moves. They're trying to make the industry better for consumers. Don't take advantage of the one good wireless company we have.
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I do tether, but I also don't do it that often. I actually try to build up my data stash (I pay for 11GB/mo) yet I also download heavy once or twice a month.
Seriously, who the f**k uses 2TB of cellular data each month? That's what all-in-one plans are for.
For the sake of comparison, Comcast's soft cap is around 300GB per month. On a wired connection. At speeds far higher than what you'll get over T-Mobile's 4G LTE.
Legere tossed out the 2TB cellular data figure in reference to what we assume are the highest bandwidth users that circumvented the tethering cap. That's no accident. That is willful abuse of the terms and conditions that clearly state that you get 7GB for tethering with the unlimited plan.
I think Legere could have done a better job of delivering the message because it probably didn't need to be a public announcement if only 3,000 users are guilty, and I find the technical validity of his argument a little weak, but I don't think there's legitimate outrage over this either. Many people who've responded in other blogs and forums lack reading comprehension and street smarts to think that "unlimited" is to be taken in the most literal fashion interpretable. Absolutes in favor of the consumer don't really exist in the marketing-heavy consumer product industry, and the government won't save us either. Not when the FDA says 0.49g trans fat = 0g.
Unlike the phone that should be yours to do as you please if you have it fully paid off, your cellular service is a subscription that is subject to the carrier's terms. Whether or not those terms make sense, they won't hesitate to enforce them. T-Mobile is by far the least bad carrier and it's best that its subscribers don't push them towards the business models of the other US carriers.
I agree snake about legere. 300GB is my Comcast soft cap
Looks like this is what he meant by "technology" lol http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3189003
RussianBear said:
Looks like this is what he meant by "technology" lol http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=3189003
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There's either the entitlement complex or naivety in that guy's post.
Others, including myself, will always believe data is data...
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Which goes back to my admittedly tongue-in-cheek but valid first comment in this thread. Does that guy own the cellular towers and the wireless spectrum? No? Then it doesn't matter if he believes data is data. It's the carrier's judgment that counts. For better or worse, all carriers will independently judge excessive use, and T-Mobile's is actually pretty clear for people who can read. Spoiler alert: He got off easy with 138GB.
http://www.t-mobile.com/Company/Com...Tab_ConsumerInfo&tsp=Abt_Sub_InternetServices
To provide the best possible experience for the most possible customers, and to minimize capacity issues and degradation in network performance, we manage Unlimited high-speed data usage through prioritization. Unlimited high-speed data customers who use more data than what 97% of all customers use in a month, based on recent historical averages (updated quarterly), will have their data usage de-prioritized compared to the data usage of other customers at times and at locations where there are competing customer demands for network resources, which may result in slower data speeds. Customers who use data in violation of their Rate Plan terms or T-Mobile's Terms and Conditions may be excluded from this calculation. Data that might be whitelisted for other (fixed allotment) plan options, such as data associated with Music Freedom, does not count towards Unlimited high-speed data customers’ usage for this calculation. Based on network statistics for the most recent quarter, Unlimited high-speed data customers who use more than 21GB of data during a billing cycle will be de-prioritized for the remainder of the billing cycle in times and at locations where there are competing customer demands for network resources. At the start of the next bill cycle, the customer’s usage status is reset, and this data traffic is no longer de-prioritized.
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When it comes to cellular service, people need to get it out of their heads that "unlimited" is the same word that is defined in the dictionary. It's not. It's a marketing term. It's probably legal as far as the government is concerned. And now we circle back to 0.49g trans fat = 0g.
blackknightavalon said:
It's MY data. I will do with it as I please.
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...until your network gets badly jammed up.
graysooner said:
Stopping Network Abusers: An Open Letter to T-Mobile Customers
FYI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The link is down.
I'm linking to it here:
http://newsroom.t-mobile.com/issues-insights-blog/stopping-network-abusers.htm
The reality is there are alot of people being cheap. They don't want to pay for cable TV or cable Internet and decide to use their smartphone data to run their whole house. They are using T-Mobile's $30 or $20 unlimited data plan to replace a $150 to $200 cable and internet bill. These same jerk offs are some of the same people running around saying unlimited means unlimited. They know they are getting over on T-Mobile. Where in the entire world can you pay $20 or $30 a month and get unlimited cell data, home Internet, and cable TV. NO WHERE.
Sent from my LG-H811 using XDA Free mobile app
snowlin said:
I mean, if i pay for unlimited data then tethering shouldn't be seen as a huge problem...
Sometimes i need a large file to be stored/opened on my desktop computer. I could download the file onto my phone over LTE and then just transfer the file from phone to computer, or i could tether my connection and avoid waiting the time it would take to transfer the file from one device to the other. The point being - if i pay for unlimited data then i'm definitely going to use as much as i want. I do not have an internet connection at my house currently as i'm moving out very soon, however i still like to watch Netflix in my downtime/before bed/etc. I would still be using my unlimited data to stream shows or movies if i were to watch things on my device but i would rather WiFi tether so that i can cast it to my chromecast. I'm not using any MORE data than i would if i had not tethered.
I understand T-Mobile would be mad because they're not making money off an additional service they charge for convenience. But it doesn't necessarily mean i'm abusing the unlimited 4g that i pay monthly for.
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Which is why they offer free 7GB of hotspot at no additional charge.
Snakecharmed said:
There's either the entitlement complex or naivety in that guy's post.
Which goes back to my admittedly tongue-in-cheek but valid first comment in this thread. Does that guy own the cellular towers and the wireless spectrum? No? Then it doesn't matter if he believes data is data. It's the carrier's judgment that counts. For better or worse, all carriers will independently judge excessive use, and T-Mobile's is actually pretty clear for people who can read. Spoiler alert: He got off easy with 138GB.
http://www.t-mobile.com/Company/Com...Tab_ConsumerInfo&tsp=Abt_Sub_InternetServices
When it comes to cellular service, people need to get it out of their heads that "unlimited" is the same word that is defined in the dictionary. It's not. It's a marketing term. It's probably legal as far as the government is concerned. And now we circle back to 0.49g trans fat = 0g.
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Marketing is good when you need to lure the masses, but bad/not to be taken literally when some of those peeps take advantage of it? Lol you can't have it both ways. If people, using their phones (not tethering), get throttled, it's time to stop the false advertisement, or at least start using asterisks...
RussianBear said:
Marketing is good when you need to lure the masses, but bad/not to be taken literally when some of those peeps take advantage of it? Lol you can't have it both ways. If people, using their phones (not tethering), get throttled, it's time to stop the false advertisement, or at least start using asterisks...
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I'm in no way supporting what marketing departments do, but the lack of oversight to their practices has led to the landscape we have today. I've worked in and with marketing teams before and I often don't agree with their ethics, but I also know the tricks they use to hook people. I'm advocating buyer research and awareness. I think it's foolish for consumers these days to take buzzwords like "unlimited" at face value and assume that there isn't fine print or obscure terms involved.
You're asking for an entire industry to become ethical. I say it's up to the buyer to gain the knowledge to make an educated decision because I'm not waiting for an entire industry whose purpose is to extract money from consumers to teach them about the tricks and mind games they use on them.
Snakecharmed said:
I'm in no way supporting what marketing departments do, but the lack of oversight to their practices has led to the landscape we have today. I've worked in and with marketing teams before and I often don't agree with their ethics, but I also know the tricks they use to hook people. I'm advocating buyer research and awareness. I think it's foolish for consumers these days to take buzzwords like "unlimited" at face value and assume that there isn't fine print or obscure terms involved.
You're asking for an entire industry to become ethical. I say it's up to the buyer to gain the knowledge to make an educated decision because I'm not waiting for an entire industry whose purpose is to extract money from consumers to teach them about the tricks and mind games they use on them.
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Agreed. I'm still curious about Legere's technology, though lol