Database Develop

[News][Milestone]Motorola Europe announces Froyo Operator Testing

www . facebook . com / motorolaeurope / posts / 167417936629785
(remove the spaces, sorry as I'm a new user)
To summarise, a Froyo build (not mentioned which one) has been sent to operators for testing. Guess that would mean a few more months before a build is even released to public. (Right after the announcement for Gingerbread? Ugh.)
---start of rant---
First of all, greetings to all (it's my first post). The Milestone is my first Android phone, and it's a love-hate relationship honestly. I made a mistake not knowing about the locked bootloader (who wouldn't? After all most Android phones don't come with a 2048-bit encrypted bootloader). I believe most Milestone users share the same experience with me, finding out the cruel truth only after purchase.
Why lock? I believe most users have already read the comment from Motorola's CEO, which is to protect users from damaging their phone. (I'll get the source article later.) Seriously? Look at the magic Droid users and developers have churned out.
The Milestone, like the Droid, is a capable phone. Not the best in the market now, but one of the better ones in the same price range.
If Motorola is unable to release updates in time, I personally feel that they should unlock our bootloader, and let the community do the magic. It's after all what people look for when they bought an open-sourced phone.
---end of rant---
I frequent the Milestone development forums (even though I've never left a message simply because I feel that I lack technical knowledge to be commenting on their wonderful works), and love what has been made for Milestone. However, there are limitations definitely, from what I gathered.
I humbly believe that if they unlocked the bootloader, they would change people's views of Motorola worldwide (like when I first got the Milestone, before finding out about the locked bootloader) and in the long run it's definitely beneficial. We're talking about European, Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, Mexican, Canadian (?) and many more markets here, my dear big M.
Is there any petition already started to appeal to Motorola to unlock our bootloaders? After all, Android is about the power of the community.
Sorry for the long message, I just needed to get this off my mind, and would love to hear about views from the amazing xda community. I may be wrong, I may be biased, but I'm just a plain Milestone user.
Oh, I still love my Milestone anyway.
Thanks. =)

it'll probably never get unlocked, but it still sucks. i love being able to do damn neared anything i want to my Droid.

What is an Encypted Bootloader and What does it Mean?

We seem to have a lot of confusion in the Atrix forum about the implications of an encrypted and or locked bootloader.
What is a bootloader?
See this article for a decent description.
Is the bootloader on the Atrix encrypted?
We don't know and likely will not know until the phone is released and people smarter than I can look at it. No reviews, including the Engadget review, have looked at whether the bootloader is encrypted. However, some have inaccurately said that it is because the installation of non-market apps is not permitted the bootloader is encrypted. However, this is a separate issue and is a requirement imposed by ATT that has nothing to do with the bootloader.
Why do people assume the bootloader is encypted?
Motorola has a strong recent history of releasing encrypted bootloaders, see the Droid X and Milestone phones. Most of the current discussion about the bootloader is limited to what we have seen from Motorola in the past. That being said, there is some hope that the bootloader will not be encrypted. In prior phones, such as the Droid X and Milestone, Motorola relied on the eFuse feature of Texas Instruments OMAP processors. Given that the Atrix uses an Nvidia Tegra 2 chip it is unlikely that Motorola can utilize the same eFuse technology.
As a result, there is some reason to be optimistic that the Atrix will only have a locked and not encrypted bootloader.
What is the difference between a locked and encrypted bootloader?
This is a good post on the topic. Locked bootloaders are on almost all android phones, including the Nexus S. Although certain locks, such as the Nexus S, are easier to open. A locked bootloader is essentially software that is written in such a way so as to prevent you from gaining access. So far XDA devs have been very skilled at cracking locked bootloaders by finding holes in this software.
An encrypted bootloader, from my understanding, is not itself encrypted, but signed by an encryption key. The phones hardware will refuse to boot unless the software that it attempts to boot is signed with the correct encryption key. The only options to crack this protection appear to be to go around the bootloader which is unlikely or to crack the encryption which also appears unlikely. See this post for more discussion.
What does an encypted bootloader mean to me?
This post at Android Forums provides a great summary of the effects of an encrypted bootloader. If you have the time, the entire thread is very informative.
The bad news is an encrypted bootloader likely means no custom kernels. This means that custom ROMs must rely on the official kernel. It also means the OS version (Froyo, Gingerbread . . .) is limited to whatever the official release is. The good news is that root access is still be possible. Root access allows you to run certain applications as the root or administrator. This allows for a lot of customization and hacking of your phone.
In the end, an encrypted bootloader may hinder your ability to completely hack the phone.
Can an encrypted bootloader be cracked?
Unlikely. For a brief discussion see this post and read the thread for a better understanding. I am aware that there is a team working on cracking the Milestone encryption using the BIONIC platform and a distributed computing effort, see androinc.net. However, even that team admits that the second coming of the dinosaurs may occur before they crack the encryption. I believe on the Milestone that the encryption is 1024 bit, which according to androinc.net may take hundreds of thousands of years to crack using a brute force method, even on a distributed computing platform.
Can a locked bootloader be cracked?
We won't know until we see it, but likely yes. Generally all software coded by humans has some error in it that can be exploited.
Why should I care if the bootloader protection cannot be circumvented?
You don't have to. But, in today's environment, consumers are tied to a 2 year contracts but new phones are released on a 1 year or less timeline. This means the device you buy today will likely be forgotten by your carrier and the phone manufacturer long before your contract is up. The inability to load custom kernels means that consumers cannot upgrade their own phones after the manufacturer decides to no longer support the phone. The decision to stop supporting upgrades often occurs well before a phones 2 year birthday, see the Motorola Upgrade Roadmap.
In addition, many people believe that they have purchased the phone hardware and should be permitted to do anything that they please with the hardware.
** I do not claim to be an expert, I have only recanted the results of my research. If I have made a mistake please let me know.

thanks for writing this i was going to my self today as i have been fighting people all day with this, i was trying to get motorola to tell me as i had a few reps available in a forum and one said that he will get back to me shortly with an answer ... but i was having to do so with people that dont know the difference chiming in and making the q&a with moto hard even for some one who does know what hes talking about ... any how i will update when i get my reply, and thanks again for putting info in right place btw up at top you put milestone instead of atrix

What a great and informative post. THIS SHOULD BE STICKIED for the time being to prevent future threads that ask the same questions. Great job.
Sent from my MSM using XDA App

sdlopez83 said:
What a great and informative post. THIS SHOULD BE STICKIED for the time being to prevent future threads that ask the same questions. Great job.
Sent from my MSM using XDA App
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+1 here, very informative.

Thanks and sorry about the typos.

Nice job both in the layout and in maintaining an unbiased take on the possibilities.

thankyou for explaining that so well

can we get a MOD to sticky this for a while, at least until we know whether it is encrypted or what not. could really cut down on the "does the bootloader restrict me from doing xxxxxxxxxxx?" chatter on all the threads.

+1 Great post! Guess we'll have to wait for quantum computers before we can crack 1024bit encryption in under a lifetime (seconds probably.) But very informative, I'm off to read everything you linked in your post.

Excellent post sir!

Great post! This should be required reading...

That means that if the Atrix 4G is HSUPA disabled, there's no way around it?

royalemint said:
That means that if the Atrix 4G is HSUPA disabled, there's no way around it?
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please post in the general forum where a thread is going about this. however, it can mostly likely be resolved with a new modem driver.

I have an Atrix 4G in my hand... how can I find out if the bootloader is encrypted?

EGBTMagus said:
I have an Atrix 4G in my hand... how can I find out if the bootloader is encrypted?
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I would like to know also. I know there are other threads about this the only problem is that there are 6 different answers/opinions.

Does not look good:
The Atrix 4G has a locked and encrypted bootloader. More bootloader related announcements are forthcoming.
http://getsatisfaction.com/motorola...tm_medium=email&utm_source=reply_notification

TinyRK said:
Does not look good:
The Atrix 4G has a locked and encrypted bootloader. More bootloader related announcements are forthcoming.
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... and here just for the record:
https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/45249?start=15&tstart=0

meta96 said:
... and here just for the record:
https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/45249?start=15&tstart=0
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I saw both of those. I am not totally convinced by a PR response, even if it is from Moto. So far the devs here in XDA seem to think it is only signed. I am inclined to believe them more, at least until I see otherwise.
Also, I need to update my OP and will try and do so tonight.

krkeegan said:
I saw both of those. I am not totally convinced by a PR response, even if it is from Moto. So far the devs here in XDA seem to think it is only signed. I am inclined to believe them more, at least until I see otherwise.
https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/45249?start=15&tstart=0
Also, I need to update my OP and will try and do so tonight.
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... the number of page views for this topic is bad PR, isn't it? It is just a act/react thing, you know ...

Who is your daddy and what does he do?
I dunno why but that's immediately what I thought of, lol
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

Update On Bootloader/ Dev Cable/ Nvflash etc...

Ok from the recent accumulation of information, lots of confusion, and lots of false info, i have seen on here finally has made me to decide to post here again in order to help clean up all of the rumors and such and give an update on the status of unlocking the device...
1. Bootloaders- are locked and as of now will be for the forseable future bearing we don't get some of the info we need one being the proper sbk. there are other methods we have been working on but i guess the easy way of putting it is we have gotten to all the final doors and have all the tools , how ever the locks on these final doors are at this point still un-pickable. My current suggestion for anyone wanting to help, unless you are a good crypto guy , in which case by all means message me, for the rest of you our best bet is a hot chic a tight dress and a even better B - to some one that has access of some of the stuff we need if you cant offer any of these things than just be patient so that next time i dont have to write this and once again we wont have to publish what we are doing for everyone to read and defend against, before we are ready too!! Remember they don't document online how the built the lock , so we should not publish how we want to dismantle it until it is done!!
2. Nvflash - Yes it exists on our devices, yes it can be accessed , yes you need a Dev. cable to do so. Yes using it theoretically we could re flash our devices with unsecured images , yes with it I could make our devices free , How ever this all being said there is a problem currently, and that is that its is signed with a sbk value, this value is unknown to us it is a AES key and is in this format 0x00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000. With out knowing the value of this key anything anyone wants to tell you about nvflash is complete and entire BS!! You can not even read from the device, any command that is sent via nvflash will return an error and than disable the connection to the device in order to prevent a brute force attack. Find us this key by sleeping with the enemy i will give you an unlocked device by tomorrow
3. Dev Cable- Yes they exist, yes you can make your own, You need to send 5v to pin 4 also known as the id pin, the battery must be removed from the device when using this cable, you will plug it into your phone hold the vol - button and goto nvflash mode than your computer can see it as well as nvflash. Is there any need for you to have this cable ? As of now probably not, as there is not much you can do with this cable unless you have a dead or damaged battery and need to reflash a sbf to fix your phone so that you can than charge your battery again. And yes TBH is offering to sell you one of these cables for $50, if that seems to be a fair price to you and do not wish to make your own and do have a use for a cable that as of now is not helping a retail atrix to much than by all means order one from there web page.
Anyhow despite our lack of posting here on XDA there are a few of us that still dedicate our time everyday to this ... We are not constantly updating people here because A) Anything less than a guide on how to unlock your device is a disappointment, B) We do not think that making our info publicly available would be beneficial to anyone, and increases the likely hood of a patch or block attempt. C) Its not a oh were almost there type of operation, there is no clear cut path. Anyhow i Hope this helps clear up info and stops foolish attempts and ridiculous comments lies and posts like i have seen the past week, keep faith and enjoy your device as is its a great devices just severely crippled thanks to AT&T thats right AT&T so if your board write to them, call them, sign the patition, file a complaint to FTC blog about it and from now on only buy devices listed like here, http://unrevoked.com/rootwiki/doku.php/public/root_friendly
Have a Great DAY!!

This wake up call is very much appreciated! Thank you, sir!!

Thank you for the update.

I believe that this has been a much needed post, but please clean up the language.
Thank you.
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App

Thank you for the good information! I'll be quite happy with my GingerBlur in the meantime.

I got fiiiiive on it
Sent from my Xoom using XDA App

sifon187 said:
time to start the bounty for the hooker.
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I'm in for $10.

frankiedizzle87 said:
Language is real talk speak how u want we grown
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App
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Like many, I am exposed to this kind of language on a daily basis. Like few, I understand the importance of a clean, inviting community for all ages. Now, I am only sixteen, but real adults speak politely, with manners and respect. Such ideals are hard to come by these days, even in the adult community. I am just making whatever menial effort I can to keep these forums clean and inviting for all age groups and backgrounds.
Thank you.

EricHegnes said:
Like many, I am exposed to this kind of language on a daily basis. Like few, I understand the importance of a clean, inviting community for all ages. Now, I am only sixteen, but real adults speak politely, with manners and respect. Such ideals are hard to come by these days, even in the adult community. I am just making whatever menial effort I can to keep these forums clean and inviting for all age groups and backgrounds.
Thank you.
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But its not for all age groups...these forums are for the hardcore modders and devs. If you don't like the way he talks don't read it
Sent from my MB860 using XDA Premium App

EricHegnes said:
Like many, I am exposed to this kind of language on a daily basis. Like few, I understand the importance of a clean, inviting community for all ages. Now, I am only sixteen, but real adults speak politely, with manners and respect. Such ideals are hard to come by these days, even in the adult community. I am just making whatever menial effort I can to keep these forums clean and inviting for all age groups and backgrounds.
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i'm 10 years older and i speak however the situation requires. not everyone has to be polite and cordial 100% of the time; in fact the internet is probably the least likely place you will find that. if there's a problem, tell the mods or report the thread. citizen's policing will often just lead to backlash.
anyway, i suggest we sticky this thread to the top of the forum.

Developers rarely speak curiously our sometimes even understandably. So asking devs to speak in your preferred style will likely lead to devs ignoring you or walking away. They're very fickle that way.
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

raybond25 said:
we either need to find an insecure female motorola employee and worm the SBK out of her, or we need to hire a really hot hooker to get it from one of the motorola tech devs.
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Lets spend that $2700 bounty on a hooker
ON TOPIC: Best of luck to the devs I'll be waiting here patiently..

With all that being said... back to the subject people Thanks for the update t0dbld! I, like many others who have this beast of a phone, will continue to patiently wait while the devs (who are working hard) try to get this thing handled!

Attention Mods: Could this be stickied in an effort to stop anymore pointless bootloader threads? Keep it updated with any news of bootloader unlock efforts.

Thanks for the update devs.

Come on guys, we all know there is no women in computers. Well not hot desperate ones anyway.

sifon187 said:
Come on guys, we all know there is no women in computers. Well not hot desperate ones anyway.
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who said they had to be hot....? someone could take one for the team.
that being said - thanks for the post t0bold, we know you're doing what you do elsewhere so you don't get flamed hard by the naysayers, and we support you guys.

raybond25 said:
who said they had to be hot....? someone could take one for the team.
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You get on with taking one for the team bud. ;D
that being said - thanks for the post t0bold, we know you're doing what you do elsewhere so you don't get flamed hard by the naysayers, and we support you guys.
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Ontopic: Great post t0bold, it was definitely needed. I am hoping the sbk gets leaked from Moto. But I doubt that will happen, but you never know.

raybond25 said:
if anyone got the sbk like that they would be my hero, ahahaha.
although, if anyone got it using any method they'd probably still be my hero, but that one would be so much more awesome.
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Lol they'd be the keymaster lmao
Sent from my MB860 using XDA App

Apart from the sbk what would you need?

Root for Verizon's "Incredible 2"(not the IS)?

I know there's a lot of discussion on this topic about the Incredible S but was wondering on the status of root for the Incredible 2(US-Verizon)?

It's my understanding these devices are pretty much the same, with minor changes to the software (ie: branding and bundling). As far as I've seen, my I2 has many of the same characteristics and behaviors (in terms of shell access, temp root, etc) as the IS as far as what I've seen in this forum (I need to dig around more, though). I suspect whatever exploit happens to work on the IS will work on the I2.
Of course, I could be very wrong.

I've been under the same impression. When inc s gets root, so will we.
Sent from Incredible 2 and XDA Premium

DINC 2
I cant wait. I want CM7GB like I had n my Eris.

I'm liking sense 2.1. We were all trying to get it to work well on the inc 1 with varying levels of success. I'd like to be able to use titanium to restore over 100 apps and also like to get rid of this stupid amount of verizon bloat. Have you guys ever seen so much bloat!? I thought the inc 1 was bad...
Sent from Incredible 2 and XDA Premium

kerfex said:
I cant wait. I want CM7GB like I had n my Eris.
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I came from an Eris as well. Was running CM7 on it, and I miss it dearly. Tried switching my I2 to LauncherPro so I could at least have the familiar environment (I have a registration code I paid for because I like it) and when I rebooted to clear running apps and be on just LP, apps started not working right (many would FC on start). Switched back to Sense and rebooted and all was working again. This annoys me greatly.

nimdae said:
I came from an Eris as well. Was running CM7 on it, and I miss it dearly. Tried switching my I2 to LauncherPro so I could at least have the familiar environment (I have a registration code I paid for because I like it) and when I rebooted to clear running apps and be on just LP, apps started not working right (many would FC on start). Switched back to Sense and rebooted and all was working again. This annoys me greatly.
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u sure u got the right version of LPP installed?
i switched out my sense to LPP ( i too have a registration code ) and all was working just fine for me
did u try to swap out ur LPP?

It's not looking too good for us, TeamAndIRC's JCASE spent about 20-30 minutes with my DInc2 and he tweeted his conclusion - "Yes incredible2 is as screwed as incredibleS, possibly worse. Psneuter works, gingerbread didn't (probably can with some work)"
he is out of town atm, gonna try again once he gets back, i really really really want 2.3.4/gtalk on our ffc

SoCalSpecialist said:
u sure u got the right version of LPP installed?
i switched out my sense to LPP ( i too have a registration code ) and all was working just fine for me
did u try to swap out ur LPP?
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I got it straight from the Android market. If I run it after letting Sense start, everything works fine. However, if I don't let Sense start, or start manually, things just break. More than likely there's some service not starting that is launched by Sense that is required for certain things to work properly that ties into the framework. This is the kind of behavior that prompted Google to stop source code early access for partners (they should not be modifying the framework). My goal is to reduce resource usage, not add another layer of resource usage due to a personal preference.
Really, I just want to return to CM. Wasn't perfect on the Eris, but allowed me to do whatever I wanted.

voiceofid said:
It's not looking too good for us, TeamAndIRC's JCASE spent about 20-30 minutes with my DInc2 and he tweeted his conclusion - "Yes incredible2 is as screwed as incredibleS, possibly worse. Psneuter works, gingerbread didn't (probably can with some work)"
he is out of town atm, gonna try again once he gets back, i really really really want 2.3.4/gtalk on our ffc
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Sigh.... Hoepfully they can figure out something.

sort of, of this topic, why is there no DINC2 forum on xda, how's it supposed to build up support when there's noplace for that to happen?

ncobs said:
sort of, of this topic, why is there no DINC2 forum on xda, how's it supposed to build up support when there's noplace for that to happen?
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1052075

My reply...
I would have to say I'm horribly upset that there isn't a thread or any support for this phone. Yes, there are people who purchased this phone...some because of warranty issues, some because of upgrades (though I would rather wait a while...since there are so many choices coming.), and others because this is their intro to the android world. Why not dedicate the same time and effort you've dedicated to all of the other phones...yes, it may be a challenge, it may even be a waste of time...but for those people out there who want...no need root and global...this phone is a success. Incredible 1 + newer 1ghz processor + 4 inches + global and a little extra = Epic Success (esp. if root was available). So as a consumer, a business man, a member of this great android community...I beg of you DEVs please assist us. We're here and we're waiting. America.
Just saying

There is forum made for this phone as its almost the same as the IS, with some minor differences. There is also no forum for the desire cdma version... Anyhow the devs who don't own this phone ( or DS or any of the new ones) have a hard time testing there creations. We have some devs who don't own it and its extremely hard to accomplish something this way. Furthermore all the devs of the newer phones try to work together for the s-off. Rom development is a completely different story.
The time for the cdma version belongs in this forum also, so I don't really see any problems...

cooljames2186 said:
I would have to say I'm horribly upset that there isn't a thread or any support for this phone. Yes, there are people who purchased this phone...some because of warranty issues, some because of upgrades (though I would rather wait a while...since there are so many choices coming.), and others because this is their intro to the android world. Why not dedicate the same time and effort you've dedicated to all of the other phones...yes, it may be a challenge, it may even be a waste of time...but for those people out there who want...no need root and global...this phone is a success. Incredible 1 + newer 1ghz processor + 4 inches + global and a little extra = Epic Success (esp. if root was available). So as a consumer, a business man, a member of this great android community...I beg of you DEVs please assist us. We're here and we're waiting. America.
Just saying
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What makes you think no one is working on this phone? As has been pointed out, there are people working on getting forums started here, and there are people getting their hands on these phones and starting to tinker with them (like me). Keep in mind this was JUST released LAST WEEK.
It's not useful to post these kinds of things as they don't really contribute to the discussion for making progress. It takes time and should we get lucky and the IS exploit works on the I2, bonus! Give it time.

nimdae said:
What makes you think no one is working on this phone? As has been pointed out, there are people working on getting forums started here, and there are people getting their hands on these phones and starting to tinker with them (like me). Keep in mind this was JUST released LAST WEEK.
It's not useful to post these kinds of things as they don't really contribute to the discussion for making progress. It takes time and should we get lucky and the IS exploit works on the I2, bonus! Give it time.
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Oh I'm sorry...I thought it was okay to post an opinion on a blog...I didn't think anyone would consider it a threat...especially since all of the current comments center around it, and I just elaborated. If you would like to attack people for posting their opinion about a certain situation...maybe you should do on your own site. Last time I checked...this was AMERICA...**** yeah, going to save the m**herf***in world...America...F*** yeah...lick my *Meow* and suck on my b*lls. Lmao...and that's my reply for you. Please and thank you. I don't hate...I just state.

Oh and one more thing...thanks for contributing to the discussion...seeing that your reply to my original post was very useful. Now back to the subject I just browsed Droidforums and notice a Incredible 2 section...I believe in XDA, and have been a ghost member for a while. I know they are working on it, and it was never my intent to come off as a douche. I was just stating an *OPINION*, I'm keeping an eye on the development of the IS and the general post section of the Incredible. I'm alert, and advise all to continue to stay alert...maybe in a week or two, we'll see some results.

Wow. No disrespect... But Americans ARE stupid.... Ok maybe its just you. We all know the i2 is so similar to the IS that discussion for both can take place here. The same thing happened with the milestone/droid thread. Full stop. Can this thread be locked up?
Sent from my HTC Incredible S using XDA App

Uhh, the Milestone and Droid were vastly different in the entire bootloader business. This made the threads ENTIRELY different..... For now it's like Droid 2 and Milestone 2. Both are stuck at square 1 with a locked bootloader.

If it's offensive to explain complaints about lack of progress is annoying and ask for patience, then I have no idea how to not be offensive (yeah, I'm a "dumb American") so I'll refrain from posting here anymore.

why the lack of development?

Hello, I was deciding between the sensation 4g and the samsung galaxy s2 and stumbled upon this phone, and find it super intriguing and I'm now leaning more towards this phone the Vivid. but was just wondering why the lack of development. is it because it's new and devs haven't had time, or hardware limitations or some other factors. would like to pick up this phone, but would love to see more choices in terms of roms.
thanks. was just curious.

It's because some people in this forum no nothing of respect or gratitude.

Locked Bootloader for many months. Only method is via HTC dev site.
No S-OFF options as of yet
As of recently the few Devs that we have had, have been disrespected and chased off. This is something we are obviously trying to change
Drew

This phone is a very capable phone, no real hardware limitations. The stock rom leave a lot to be desired and IMO really holds the phone back. As for the lack of development, we only had a handful of devs, and most of them have left due to hurt feelings. I wont go into the details, just skim through some of the closed threads in the general and dev sections. If you get a vivid and want to flash a custom rom, our devs are still out there, you just have to look outside of xda.

drewdatrip said:
Locked Bootloader for many months. Only method is via HTC dev site.
No S-OFF options as of yet
As of recently the few Devs that we have had, have been disrespected and chased off. This is something we are obviously trying to change
Drew
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it's kind of like the amaze then right? where it doesn't have any s-off option. i guess the locked bootloader held it back a bit.
anyway, thanks guys for the explanation. yeah i found pirateghost's site and downloaded his rom.
and yeah, read some of the posts regarding devs leaving. hopefully those devs come back and also some more come onboard.

They are not coming back. Wild Child runs his own site and PirateGhost moved on to another website. That way they can control the kind of people that can post.

Crimson Ghoul said:
They are not coming back. Wild Child runs his own site and PirateGhost moved on to another website. That way they can control the kind of people that can post.
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do you know what wild child's website is? i found pirateghost's.
thanks

..and what, may I ask, is Wild Child's site?

slamming_sammy1 said:
do you know what wild child's website is? i found pirateghost's.
thanks
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frostxinfinity said:
..and what, may I ask, is Wild Child's site?
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See his signature...