If you google android gpu acceleration, you'll see numerous threads on other sites of people asking for it and others saying there hardware is smooth enough.
I don't want to discuss the merit of gpu acceleration as I think it's a given. What I'd like to know is a list of apps that do. But also, if these apps can, why isn't it utilized system-wide? Other threads mentioned older hardware could only have one opengl layer, so if your launcher was gpu accelerated, then a game wouldn't launch. I doubt this is the issue now with more recent hardware.
Is there any side project trying to add this to say cyanogen?
Anyway, I know launcher pro is accelerated. The scrolling through applications is like night and day with other launchers. Also the latest Opera is accelerated. It seems like the built-in gallery app is accelerated. I'm not sure about any of the pdf viewers. ezpdf seems the smoothest, but again, it might be just more optimized over other pdf readers.
So is there a list of apps that utilize the gpu? (besides games obviously)
I'm not sure if it's a video driver issue from device to device, but if that's so, how can a small app like launcher pro work accelerated on numerous devices?
sark666 said:
But also, if these apps can, why isn't it utilized system-wide?
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Because a lot of Android phones can't take it.
Other threads mentioned older hardware could only have one opengl layer, so if your launcher was gpu accelerated, then a game wouldn't launch. I doubt this is the issue now with more recent hardware.
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Yeah, but Android's target is a huge range of hardware- some very crappy. Read up on Android's "fragmentation problem."
Is there any side project trying to add this to say cyanogen?
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A composite based GUI is a HUGE project. It is WAY beyond the scope of this community. It is what delayed Windows Vista for so long, and was a huge reason why many people didn't like Vista (as hardware around its launch couldn't handle the interface).
It took the Linux desktop over three years to add a decent composite GUI, and that was with MANY large companies working on it.
Composite based GUIs are VERY VERY difficult to get right. The only reason Apple has it right is from the get go that was the best part of OSX. Apple's engineers somehow got its composite GUI (called Quartz) on old low-MHz PowerPC machines, and that miracle of technology has not been duplicated anywhere else. In fact, that was the competitive advantage that Apple took with it to the phone market once phones were as powerful as old PowerPC machines.
Other OS's that use a GPU accelerated GUI just have to have very strict minimums for hardware. For example, look at the minimums for Window's phones. Any one of those would be high-end in the Android market.
I'm not sure if it's a video driver issue from device to device, but if that's so, how can a small app like launcher pro work accelerated on numerous devices?
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Run Launcher Pro on an older Android device like a Droid 1 and you would be singing a different tune as to how smooth it is. The fact of the matter is that the Android eco-system isn't ready yet....
Hmm, compiz made huge improvements quite rapidly so I don't know about 3 years to get it right. The benefits were immediate; maybe refinements as it went along.
Regardless if it is huge undertaking, google has to address this. I've read articles where they say it's more garbage collecting vs an accelerated gui. Here's a brief but good article on it: http://www.satine.org/archives/2011/01/01/the-care-and-feeding-of-the-android-gpu/
And linux is a good example, the initial beginnings of compiz were a very small group of developers and features were being added very rapidly.
It turns a lot of people off android when they see a sluggish OS, or the appearance of a sluggish OS.
At any rate, my question still stands. you mention older devices needed to being supported. Then how does an app like launcher pro do it? I'm sure it doesn't have custom drivers for all the various gpu's out there? Same with Opera.
And I'd still like a list of (if there is one) of gpu accelerated apps. If the OS doesn't have it, then it would be nice to have it at the app level. Although I see that causing more headaches down the road instead of the OS doing it.
Anyway, google doesn't sound like they are taking this issue seriously. Or dismissing it as not necessary, but I think that's a mistake. On a traditional desktop OS, it's a nice to have but not really necessary, as most things are static. But given the size of the these devices, menus/icons etc are usually moved about cascade and expand etc. Items are dragged and moved etc. All this calls for an interface that maintains a high fps or otherwise it gives the perception of feeling laggy.
Trust me...rewriting Android to do automatic compositing is a huge undertaking. This would be very difficult to do while maintaining compatibility which existing applications. Honeycomb has compositing but it isn't enabled in applications by default because it can break applications with custom drawing. I don't see any reason for us to attempt to implement composting when its already done about as well as anyone can do it in Honeycomb.
sark666 said:
Hmm, compiz made huge improvements quite rapidly so I don't know about 3 years to get it right. The benefits were immediate; maybe refinements as it went along.
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GPU GUI acceleration on the Linux desktop didn't start with Compiz. GPU GUI acceleration started in 2004 when Keith Packard added the composite patch to Xorg. David Reveman began working on XGL and Compiz around that time, and didn't release a workable beta version until 2006.
Yet that beta version relied on XGL, which was basically running the Linux desktop like you would a video game. It wasn't until AIGLX became stabilized in open source and closed source drivers in 2007 that GPU GUI acceleration on the Linux desktop was finished (I am huge Xorg junkie, that is why I know these random facts).
Regardless if it is huge undertaking, google has to address this. I've read articles where they say it's more garbage collecting vs an accelerated gui.
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From what I have heard, Honeycomb supposedly has a GPU accelerated GUI. But we don't know till we can see the code.
It turns a lot of people off android when they see a sluggish OS, or the appearance of a sluggish OS.
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I would say that the sluggishness is only obvious next to iOS- other mobile OSes also lack such abilities. Compared to iOS Android has mostly targeted the lower-end user segment where quality of experience is less important than raw price (hence the many underpowered Android phones).
Eventually due to attrition the baseline will increase in power and old phones will be cut off for new features such as this. I have already heard that Gingerbread runs terrible on a Droid 1, which is barely a two year old phone.
Then how does an app like launcher pro do it?
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Same way games do it- they just run like crap on older phones. Google can't afford to take that approach with the entire OS.
And I'd still like a list of (if there is one) of gpu accelerated apps. If the OS doesn't have it, then it would be nice to have it at the app level.
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Me too.
Anyway, google doesn't sound like they are taking this issue seriously.
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I think that is an accurate assessment. I think Google believes that in time the hardware itself wil cover this inadequacy- it matters less on dual core phones. Its all those poor people that bought early Android phones that have had to suffer the most...
I'm sure it's not trivial, but again standalone apps seemed to have done it. I know OS wide is another issue. But really, honeycomb is really late when it comes to this. It really should have been a 2.x feature. I"m the exact opposite of an apple fan boy, but the first iphone in 2007 had this. That set the bar right there. What 4 years later and google is almost on it? And yes iphone is a fixed device, but still. An abstraction layer should have been worked on so if a device has a gpu it's used, otherwise fallback to software.
And on a side note, It would still be nice to know apps that do implement this now.
sark666 said:
An abstraction layer should have been worked on so if a device has a gpu it's used, otherwise fallback to software.
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I am a huge fan of this stuff (I actually had a blog about composite back in the day) and I can tell you after hacking on many devices and OSes, only ONCE have I seen a decent software-based compositor. OSX. That is it, in the whole world.
In fact, Apple's entire "magic" empire of devices is built on that unique competitive advantage. Part of what has made it work is that composite was there from day one- unlike a Linux, Windows or Android, OSX/iOS has ALWAYS had composite so applications had to work with it.
And it wasn't a painless process. Early OSX versions (until Tiger I think) all had major composite bugs (to the point I am good at spotting them). Part of Apple's advantage is that initially the OSX base was so small that it didn't matter what broke and what didn't.
So essentially it is not a 4 year gap, but is more like a 10 year advantage. All those old PowerPC Mac users paid out the nose to make modern Apple phones the pleasant experience they are.
To me the saving grace of Android is that Google allows developers to replace major parts. So maybe the entire OS will never have real GPU acceleration, but Google doesn't stop the Operas and Launcher Pros of the world to replace essential functions with apps that CAN leverage that ability. That way different parts of the OS get fixed up by those who are best at that part, and those with weaker hardware can do without.
So yeah, a list would be nice.
Well even Windows XP seems to dust Android's best. For example, browsing these very forums on my pathetic netbook is smooth but on NC it is extremely slow unless Opera Mobile is used. Even Honeycomb's browser is slow scrolling these forums. It is pretty mind blowing that in 2011 there would be 2D GUI inadequacies like this.
But the reason is as has been said: there are phones with really poor GPUs running Android. So Google basically set the bar too low in order to probably lower the cost to develop an Android device and now they don't want to break compatibility. Although I don't see why 3.0 couldn't have been more ambitious.
Not Quite A List of Android GPU Apps
GPU Acceleration will be system wide when Ice Cream Sandwich is released. I stumbled upon this thread hoping to find specific apps. I am of the Nvidia Bootcamp, so that influenced me to get a Droid X2. There are some killer apps that work perfect with GPU acceleration. I am rather surprised to find that this thread became a history lesson, much which I knew and Wikipedia could tell me.
I am using a Movie Player on Android called MX Video Player (FREE and Free Codec Download Required). It works extremely well. This app is an excellent example of quality software taking advantage of GPU acceleration, before a system wide implementation. I doubt "MX" will get better when ICS is here.
As for CyanogenMod none that I know of other than the ICS port they are cooking up. Has to do with ICS SDK API 14, that is the framework for it?
When I find more I will add to the list here, that is if I dont forget.
Oh and that snyde XP comment.... Let me know how the android gui and os is when it has had ten years in the limelight, with patches and bug fixes!
Related
Let me start by saying I love Android. I love Google. Not only is Android an extremely powerful OS with a wonderful interface but I love the whole open ethos behind it, led by Google, the good guys.
But I just can't for the life of my understand why GPU support is not being introduced, or at least acknowledged that it's missing and it's coming.
I'm running Froyo, and whilst it may well be 500 gazillion times faster crunching numbers and performing data intensive tasks and whatever, it doesn't feel it as I use the phone next to an iphone 3gs.
Manipulating every single screen, every single swipe, window, everything including menus and web browsing just doesn't feel as good as on the iphone. Even if it is is technically faster, what good is it when the thing just doesn't feel as good? It might as well be slower, because how something feels has the bigger impact on people's perceptions.
I understand it's not as easy to accomplish as apple did it being as they only have one phone etc, but surely there's got to be some way?
Why is this issue not bigger within the Android community? Everybody knows the iphone is more fluid to use no matter how much we might want to deny it to ourselves.
It's easy to be smoother when you can't do more than one thing at a time.
Apple moves basically a wallpaper with icons, which is just a picture.
Android moves widgets and live wallpaper. Tons of CPU used for that. Turn off your live wallpaper, disable widgets - get the same scrolling as iPhone.
GPU is there and has nothing to do with it.
Search would have helped avoiding useless complaints in capital letters with tons of "?"s.
If the visuals are so important to you - get an iPhone. System limitations - there's only so much that can be done between battery life, multitasking and graphics. iPhone uses graphics at the expense of multitasking, Android does otherwise.
shrub said:
Let me start by saying I love Android. I love Google. Not only is Android an extremely powerful OS with a wonderful interface but I love the whole open ethos behind it, led by Google, the good guys.
But I just can't for the life of my understand why GPU support is not being introduced, or at least acknowledged that it's missing and it's coming.
I'm running Froyo, and whilst it may well be 500 gazillion times faster crunching numbers and performing data intensive tasks and whatever, it doesn't feel it as I use the phone next to an iphone 3gs.
Manipulating every single screen, every single swipe, window, everything including menus and web browsing just doesn't feel as good as on the iphone. Even if it is is technically faster, what good is it when the thing just doesn't feel as good? It might as well be slower, because how something feels has the bigger impact on people's perceptions.
I understand it's not as easy to accomplish as apple did it being as they only have one phone etc, but surely there's got to be some way?
Why is this issue not bigger within the Android community? Everybody knows the iphone is more fluid to use no matter how much we might want to deny it to ourselves.
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I am the most unbiased person I've ever met and I will honestly tell you that the response on my phone is as fast and smooth as I have ever seen on any phone. I don't think it can get better. I do not like the grid popping in the Nexus Launcher though. I wish it would just scroll like the old versions.
You don't have a real question in all honesty. Your question is, why is it not like the iPhone and why is it not "smooth" to you personally. That's just the way one person feels. I like the way the N1 feels across the entire OS. They're two different OS's and Phones so they're never going to be the same. I think you really just prefer one over the other in your own opinion. Neither of them can be called better outside of an opinion so nothing will change.
I will sacrifice fluidity any day for functionality.
Also, do you have any idea of what Android has come from, in the sense of versioning? I am certain that this is almost identical the iPhone OS/Hardware Saga from version 1 and up.
I have a question. Why is there so much comparison to iphone. I think android Smashes them but why post topic after topic about that... where's that one mod. He should delete this.
temperbad said:
I have a question. Why is there so much comparison to iphone. I think android Smashes them but why post topic after topic about that... where's that one mod. He should delete this.
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There is always a comparison of the top two of anything. Android and iPhone are very similar and they're they top devices so they're going to get compared. 99.999% of the comparisons are biased in some way but the fact is that neither of them are factually better than the other. They both have amazing features that the other doesn't and the word "better" and your decision come down to your personal preferences. I don't like iTunes, I think widgets are a MUST for me and I enjoy modding my phone without going through hell to do it or getting the cops called on me so I chose Android. Also I have been behind everything Google has done for many years and I will continue to love the company but biased attitudes are something I try to avoid. Not only do you not learn anything but you look foolish acting that way [I'm not talking about you personally I'm speaking in general].
Wow, I'm surprised to see that I'm one of the only people who completely agree with the original poster.
This isn't limited to the launcher. As the OP stated, literally every on screen motion is smoother on the iPhone.
This isn't because of the lack of multitasking on the iPhone because iOS 4 looks just as smooth.
It is either a consequence of the threading used in gui programs and/or better use of the GPU for animations and scrolling. It seems to me on my Nexus that in most cases scrolling and animations are slower when the CPU is processing something where as on an iPhone the scrolling seems smooth regardless of the processes involved.
One of my complaints along these lines is scrolling in the Android web browser isn't nearly as nice as even the slower iPhone 3G, much less an iPhone 3GS.
dalingrin said:
Wow, I'm surprised to see that I'm one of the only people who completely agree with the original poster.
This isn't limited to the launcher. As the OP stated, literally every on screen motion is smoother on the iPhone.
This isn't because of the lack of multitasking on the iPhone because iOS 4 looks just as smooth.
It is either a consequence of the threading used in gui programs and/or better use of the GPU for animations and scrolling. It seems to me on my Nexus that in most cases scrolling and animations are slower when the CPU is processing something where as on an iPhone the scrolling seems smooth regardless of the processes involved.
One of my complaints along these lines is scrolling in the Android web browser isn't nearly as nice as even the slower iPhone 3G, much less an iPhone 3GS.
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Agreed, Ill take Android's greater capabilities over Iphone's fluidity any day but both would be sweet.
DMaverick50 said:
Agreed, Ill take Android's greater capabilities over Iphone's fluidity any day but both would be sweet.
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Without a doubt. I'm just not convinced the two are mutually exclusive.
Paul22000 said:
It's easy to be smoother when you can't do more than one thing at a time.
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Once I saw this post I knew I didn't have to look at the rest of the thread since this answered it all
I disable screen animations. I have no need for worthless eye-candy. Just give me whatever I tapped on as fast as possible.
Love it.
mortzz said:
I disable screen animations. I have no need for worthless eye-candy. Just give me whatever I tapped on as fast as possible.
Love it.
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I either turn the animations off or turn their speed up. IMO scrolling is more of an issue than animations.
Example:
Goto www.androidcentral.com or www.anandtech.com on a Nexus One and with the page zoomed all the way out try scrolling. At the top of the page my frame rate is <15.
Now do the same on a wee iPhone(even first gen) and see how smooth the scrolling is.
Is it end of the world? No, of course not. I am very satisfied with my phone compared to my previous iPhone 3GS and 3G. That said, considering my main use of my phone(beyond being a phone) is web browsing, I would still love to have the scrolling of my "crap" iPhone.
Its a genuine complaint.
The lack of smooth visuals is getting silly. I think Google bringing in the guy from Palm/Danger is an ackowledgment of this.
Its not cpu , its not ram, its not multitasking. Its Apple that has some if not the best UI guys in the business in terms of visuals. Id say WebOS guys were the tops but they were mostly old Apple guys so go figure.
Apple spends a ton of time and offort making sure everything looks fluid across the entire experience. Android does not. Its simply not something theyve taken seriously until 2.1. They are the best engineers in the world..not GUI designers. The fact the Gallery still has 16 bit depth is a tell tale sign they arent emphasizing visuals.
Anyways the GPU is underused. UI , Games , Codecs theres a alot of room for improvement. Androids UI is "better"...but lets not kid ourselves..the animations and fluidity are heavily in Apples corner. Loks are important; otherwise go date a fat hairy girl.
I thought I was quite picky but I don't notice any problems with my nexus
Maybe I haven't spent that much time playing with iPhones but when I have seen people using them they press something and have to wait for it to load, they get a grey checker pattern when they scroll too fast in the browser. Sometimes their swipes didn't register either.
xManMythLegend said:
Its a genuine complaint.
The lack of smooth visuals is getting silly. I think Google bringing in the guy from Palm/Danger is an ackowledgment of this.
Its not cpu , its not ram, its not multitasking. Its Apple that has some if not the best UI guys in the business in terms of visuals. Id say WebOS guys were the tops but they were mostly old Apple guys so go figure.
Apple spends a ton of time and offort making sure everything looks fluid across the entire experience. Android does not. Its simply not something theyve taken seriously until 2.1. They are the best engineers in the world..not GUI designers. The fact the Gallery still has 16 bit depth is a tell tale sign they arent emphasizing visuals.
Anyways the GPU is underused. UI , Games , Codecs theres a alot of room for improvement. Androids UI is "better"...but lets not kid ourselves..the animations and fluidity are heavily in Apples corner. Loks are important; otherwise go date a fat hairy girl.
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I agree with this wholeheartedly. Android really just isn't the most aesthetically pleasing user interface around, I've never owned an iPhone - and don't plan to, but Apple simply knows their stuff when it comes graphic design..
There's been some info on this issue on the android-platform groups and the skia rendering engine group (Skia acutally has an experimental OpenGL rendering branch).
From what I understand, hardware acceleration can't be implemented in older devices (ex: G1) because they only support one OpenGL instance at a time, meaning the launcher could be in conflit with apps. It also seems as if the stuttering we feel is actually caused by Android's garbage colletor because it blocks the UI thread when it kicks in and not because the phone's cpu cant keep up with scrolling. If you watched some of the Google I/O 2010 videos, they said they know of the issues with the garbage collector and they are working on it.
My guess is that hardware acceleration will come sooner or later (specially with the Tegra 2 chips and tablet format ) but if you want to make things move a bit you can always go to code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914 and star the issue (consider it a vote ).
New here btw, hello all
dalingrin said:
I either turn the animations off or turn their speed up. IMO scrolling is more of an issue than animations.
Example:
Goto www.androidcentral.com or www.anandtech.com on a Nexus One and with the page zoomed all the way out try scrolling. At the top of the page my frame rate is <15.
Now do the same on a wee iPhone(even first gen) and see how smooth the scrolling is.
Is it end of the world? No, of course not. I am very satisfied with my phone compared to my previous iPhone 3GS and 3G. That said, considering my main use of my phone(beyond being a phone) is web browsing, I would still love to have the scrolling of my "crap" iPhone.
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I just tested anandtech.com on my N1 using Dolphin HD and have Froyo installed. The page was pretty much butter smooth except the top which had a flash banner ad and a flash "news reel". Of course the iPhone is going to be smoother at the top of that page since it doesn't show any flash elements. Not to say I don't want smoother scrolling when there are flash elements, but I'd rather have them showing with a little choppy frame rate than not at all.
RE: GPU Support
It's a common misconception that Android is slow changing windows and stuff- just go to Spare Parts and turn the window animations off.
my nexus next to the iphone, the nexus is just as smooth and fast to my eyes. the nexus is actually buttery smooth. using launcher pro. maybe that is what makes the difference i bet.
why have they put an old model processor in there? why not the MSM8255?
i am holding out for a little bit, i am due an upgrade now, but dont want to rush into buying this phone if something better is coming.
Plus want to see what modding can be done to the software / themes, 3rd party apps etc
t3rm3y said:
why have they put an old model processor in there? why not the MSM8255?
i am holding out for a little bit, i am due an upgrade now, but dont want to rush into buying this phone if something better is coming.
Plus want to see what modding can be done to the software / themes, 3rd party apps etc
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because Microsoft only support the "old" snapdragon .
why apple customers don't ask them the same question , they use the same GPU as what is in 3gs a year ago ,
a second thing wp7 is developed on the snapdragon which is more than enough for now with it's improved drivers and direct x 9 support , it will perform even 2x better than a DHD with 8255 processor
t3rm3y said:
but dont want to rush into buying this phone if something better is coming.
QUOTE]
Sorry I'm the one that had to break the news, but there is always something better coming...
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hoss_n2 said:
why apple customers don't ask them the same question , they use the same GPU as what is in 3gs a year ago ,
a second thing wp7 is developed on the snapdragon which is more than enough for now with it's improved drivers and direct x 9 support , it will perform even 2x better than a DHD with 8255 processor
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+1 and 10char
t3rm3y said:
why have they put an old model processor in there? why not the MSM8255?
i am holding out for a little bit, i am due an upgrade now, but dont want to rush into buying this phone if something better is coming.
Plus want to see what modding can be done to the software / themes, 3rd party apps etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have an HD7, it is lag free and very responsive, I think the processor will be up to the task as long as the coding is optimal.
Because having the next most powerful processor isn't important. It doesn't matter what kinda specs a device is running s long as the device runs well. Apple has proved that.
And from what I have seen, MP7 runs beautifully.
Lorddeff07 said:
Because having the next most powerful processor isn't important. It doesn't matter what kinda specs a device is running s long as the device runs well. Apple has proved that.
And from what I have seen, MP7 runs beautifully.
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True that.
Old processor?
Maybe this is a bad news to you, but it's good to me cause of my hd2.
I probably would have been crying about the same thing, if technology was growing by leaps and bounds. But its not right now, technology is kinda stagnate as of lately. Yes, the HD7 has the same processor as its predecessor the HD2, but its not a bad thing. especially now that the new rom has came out for the HD2, it feels faster than ever (you can go on the HD2 and Leo boards to attest for yourself). Another thing to remember, is that the new Windows Phone 7, is not an OS that needs a 2Ghz processor to run buttery smooth. I think that we are used to the PC ideology that the next thing should have a higher number than the last, in order to be considered and respectable upgrade. But even those Intel and AMD processors, reached their, threshold for raw computing power (for now) and the companies are now refining their codes, and drivers, in order to utilize and maximize peak performance out of what they already have. (That's why 4Ghz desktop processors aren't mainstream yet)
Another thing is the WP7 is standardized with base set requirements for internal specs. I truly doubt that you'll find a noticeable difference between all the launch devices behavior with the OS, because of their processors. The mail screen might open up a little quicker on one device, but again, that could be a driver code magic for the display adapter in a particular phone, so the one that "wins" in our mind, should have been the "newer, speedier" processor but because of the refinement and more developed drivers, the one that displayed the inbox quicker was the "older" processor. (I hope you guys got that...lol)
So what I'm trying to say at the end of the day, is it really doesn't matter about the processor spec, because whats inside the HD7 is more than plenty to run the OS and its apps very very nicely.
forgiveness if this is wrong info, but i believe many of the first gen WP7 devices are using the same snapdragon CPU and GPU combo as the nexus one, the adreno 2.5 i believe. yet those devices are smooth as butter on all parts of the OS, including any web page you throw at the browser.
is there a reason why the same is not achieved on the nexus one and android phones? i assume its down to drivers, but seems silly that android wouldnt be similar...anyone have insight with this?
Minus the x,y axis touch screen limitation my n1 is pretty smooth all around, what sort of differences do you see ?
disgustip8ted said:
Minus the x,y axis touch screen limitation my n1 is pretty smooth all around, what sort of differences do you see ?
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Don't get me wrong, my nexus one is smooth as butter in 95% of all areas. Home screen scrolling and transitions easily must be hitting 50fps. But certain websites like engadget or this forum can skip a tad. Throw those same sites on new windows phone and It's smooth as butter.
I just wonder how this is possible with the same chip set, especially considering how our adreno is supposedly not the best.
do you have the "enable plug-ins" setting in the browser set to "on demand"?
i have mine like this and xda loads pretty quick, ondemand just lets you tap on a flash item when you want it to be rendered.
Yes on demand has been set for many months. I'm not talking about load speed, but scrolling smoothness once loaded. There are minor examples else where in the OS. But in general I'm wondering about drivers between the 2 platforms. You'd prob have to use a phone to see.
ill check out my friend's wp7 tomorrow at work. i cant get my phone to be choppy on this thread or the main thread or the gigglebread thread zoomed in or fully zoomed out :\
Probably cuz the browser on WP7 is based off the best internet browser EVER. Duh!
</sarcasm>
But seriously, it's a different OS, and the browser is different than ours. My wife had an HTC Surround for about a month (returned it cuz of lack of apps right now), and I will say, it was a pretty nice phone. Maybe after a few updates it'll be something to look into again, but right now, it's at the beginning of it's life, so there's a lot missing in my opinion.
It's all about code optimization, proper drivers, hardware accelerated graphics...
since android must run on many devices with many different cpus they can't optimize everything for the snapdragon, as they've done with WP7.
elmerendeiro said:
It's all about code optimization, proper drivers, hardware accelerated graphics...
since android must run on many devices with many different cpus they can't optimize everything for the snapdragon, as they've done with WP7.
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that's kinda the direction i was going. i wonder if this is something that qualcomm perhaps helps microsoft with providing optimized drivers, or they were paid to do so. it just shows how the snapdragon and adreno are pretty powerful but get a lot of negative talk around the community for it's graphics capability.
seeing as it was goog;e's first and initial phone, its too bad they did not attempt the similar performance optimizations. i mean each individual phone needs device specific drivers anyway, so its too bad they didnt take it to that next level.
Someone on Slashdot linked to a very interesting article relating to this problem.
Google "The Care and Feeding of the Android GPU"
(Note: This has probably been posted on the forums before, but it seemed worth adding to the current conversation)
EDIT: Wow. Terrible grammar. Wish I could blame Swype, but I'm pretty sure I'm just a moron lol.
inconceeeivable said:
Someone on Slashdot linked to a very interested article relating to this problem.
Google "The Care and Feeding of the Android GPU"
(Note: This has probably been posted on the forums before, but it seemed worth adding to the current conversation)
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actually this totally answers my question. thanks. reading that slashdot article, there are some great comments at the bottom, one with a link to anandtech article about WP7 and GPU's etc. also a former google employee commented on the topic.
so basically yes MS very tightly controls things and wanted it that way. android has to code for common devices across many manufacturers etc.
one interesting thing the anandtech article says that WP7 is capped at 30 FPS by microsoft due to battery concerns. some dev's complained. remember the EVO had that cap, and it sucks because of it. but playing with WP7 devices i didnt notice it a bit. strange.
and the real answer as others have said in the past is lack of UI hardward acceleration. interesting topci on google bug tracker explains it all. but 3.0 seems to fix it!
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=6914
Simple, there is no hardware acceleration in the UI. Only apps that are programmed to use the GPU will use it.
Android needs a virtual machine, W7 doesn't, it runs native on the hardware. Full native support.
holy crap, i just watched a video of android which DOES have full graphics hardware acceleration thru the enture UI, and nearly crapped my pants. talk about iphone-like smoothness...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpH3oX9RhIE
Hi Forum, I hope this is the right forum to pose this question and to discuss the topic
ok the question:
Am I the only one who is bugged by the fact that, to close most applications in WP (wheter it is active or in background), we have to tap the "Back" button as many times as the number of pages? here are some pics so you can understand my point xD
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9092/31238975.png
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5176/30856883.png
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4329/28248076.png
As you can see from the last 2 pics, in this case, the user has to click backwards at least 2 times in order to close the application.
Wouldn't it be better to have a small icon in order to close the application completly?
Something like:
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/2318/50922462.png
So! What are your opinions?
Is there something like this already?
Do you think that a mod or something could help out with this "problem"?
Do you think WP8 has a feature/solution for this?
Or is it just something personal xD ?
There is no other way but there is also no need.
The background applications do not consume CPU like they do on android, and if memory is needed, the OS simply closes them down.
mcosmin222 said:
There is no other way but there is also no need.
The background applications do not consume CPU like they do on android, and if memory is needed, the OS simply closes them down.
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Well many, do still think that closing apps directly is better...
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/6/3464142/wp8-fixes-multi-tasking
Taurenking said:
Well many, do still think that closing apps directly is better...
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/6/3464142/wp8-fixes-multi-tasking
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So it would seem and though they are thinking about the whole thing wrong this mind set cant be ignored even if it is wrong. A lot of people come from the Android ios world of background tasks killing battery life and performance.
Maybe if they have a close app in the tiles screen to address these concerns. Even if you know something is not needed if the customer thinks (even wrongly) that it is then you are going to look like your product is not as good even though you know as an expert that it is. I get this all the time in my job and that's why I use the mother test, I send an idea to my mother and if she gets it then I know its good if not I rework it.
Idk about IOS but in android it is a mistake to close down applications in most cases.
In fact, many people don't know that pressing the close button does not actually close the app, but move it to cached processes. You then have to kill it again in there to finish the job.
Anyway, many apps are persistent in android. Killing them will only make the system want to restore them again, thus eating more CPU than they would have if they were running.
On the other hand, they do represent a resource hug when not closed.
SO on this aspect, android does have a big problem with its multitasking and this is the main reason why android is such a resource hog, and requires quad core CPUs and loads of RAM to get the job done right. And google isn't doing much about this, in fact they continue with the resource waist, which will inevitably put a cap on how much android can do.
As for Windows Phone, it is fairly easy to restore the application to its stage before closing it down. People just don't know about that (and neither most of the developers).
Android phone and WP7 phone have almost same battery life, however, android has true multitasking but not in WP7, which means WP7 actually comsume more power. From my point of view, if I want to close an app, I don't want to see it appear in the backgroud. This give the chance to run it unexpectedly if I accidently tap it in multitask screen
The battery life is a non-issue with multitasking.
It doesn't matter how many apps are running, the CPU uses the same amount of power.
On the other hand, android is much slower than windows phone, which is because the android multitasking is a resource hog that is not really needed.
Remember we are on phones after all, not super computer.
If there is not much to do CPUs clock down or go to sleep completely for some time therefore reducing power consumption. On Multi-Cores in low utilization cores are sometimes completely powered down. So if only one program is running and it's not a game needing the CPUs full power it's highly likely that the CPU will use much less power.
If instead I have several Apps running in the background then I have a higher CPU utilization that doesn't really help me with what I'm currently doing (with the foreground app). That is why background Apps are frozen on iOS and WP unless they do something specifically allowed (so nothing happens in the background that's not really necessary).
mcosmin222 said:
On the other hand, android is much slower than windows phone, which is because the android multitasking is a resource hog that is not really needed.
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One could argue your point. I'll agree that WP7 runs great with low spec phones, but the new Android devices are simply faster. Compared to my mom's SGIII, my Arrive is painfully slow at loading apps and websites. Also, the SGIII lasts considerably longer than my Arrive, which shows that poor battery life on android devices are a thing of the past*.
Dont get me wrong, I want the WP platform to succeed(I think its a great OS), but it still has a long way to go; and limiting the max spec of WP8 to barely beyond current generation tech really sets the bar low.
*yes, I'm aware of the SGIII's battery size. Still, I can easily get two days out of it, vs my Arrive lasting 1-1.5 days
StevieBallz said:
If there is not much to do CPUs clock down or go to sleep completely for some time therefore reducing power consumption. On Multi-Cores in low utilization cores are sometimes completely powered down. So if only one program is running and it's not a game needing the CPUs full power it's highly likely that the CPU will use much less power.
If instead I have several Apps running in the background then I have a higher CPU utilization that doesn't really help me with what I'm currently doing (with the foreground app). That is why background Apps are frozen on iOS and WP unless they do something specifically allowed (so nothing happens in the background that's not really necessary).
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The core clock is a non-issue on android.
You will never be able to stop all applications, some of them (most of them) return minutes latter, because the OS is programmed to restore them. Many poorly programed applications behave like system applications and they keep running all the time.Standards are pretty low in Android. Which is why things like app closers, scheduled task managers and other stuff like that exist.
One could argue your point. I'll agree that WP7 runs great with low spec phones, but the new Android devices are simply faster. Compared to my mom's SGIII, my Arrive is painfully slow at loading apps and websites. Also, the SGIII lasts considerably longer than my Arrive, which shows that poor battery life on android devices are a thing of the past*.
Dont get me wrong, I want the WP platform to succeed(I think its a great OS), but it still has a long way to go; and limiting the max spec of WP8 to barely beyond current generation tech really sets the bar low.
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Compare the specs of the new android phones. Compare their prices as well.
SGIII literally has 4 times the processing power of the highest end WP7.5 devices currently on the market, and performance is comparable between the two. WP is an awesome platform. Android is not even close.
mcosmin222 said:
Compare the specs of the new android phones. Compare their prices as well.
SGIII literally has 4 times the processing power of the highest end WP7.5 devices currently on the market, and performance is comparable between the two. WP is an awesome platform. Android is not even close.
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The US spec SGIII uses the Krait processor, not the quad core. While it would be comparing apples to oranges, in a sense, I still stand by my case: with the proper hardware, the Android platform can be just as effective.
My stance stems from the arguement that WP7 is a better OS because it runs very well on basic hardware. This claim drove me nuts because M$ was so bent on proving that point, that flagship devices ran on half the hardware Android phones of that generation were currently utilizing.
Comparatively, it's the difference between running XP and Vista on legacy hardware vs current hardware.. People were knocking Vista because it was a resource hog and ran like crap on most computers; on the other hand, it runs better than XP machines when kitted out with newer hardware. One OS runs very well on less specs, but plateus very quickly, where the other platform requires more resources, but scales better when properly complemented.
In essence, WP7 is XP
I hope you arent portraying me as an Android fanboy, because I'm not; I'm just being brutally honest here. I really want to see WP8 succeed where WP7 fell flat, but seeing MS fitting compatibility specs of WP8 devices with fairly short outlook leaves me feeling uneasy.
BTW: I've been using Microsoft PDA's and smartphones since 2004, and have used both android and iOS devices for about six months out of those eight years. Juust so you know where I come from =)
Actually the OS does quite often not have that much influence on actual application performance. The big criticism of Android has always been that it tended to perform crappy (force closes, stutters) even on high end hardware. Some of that has to do with process priorization, some with missing hardware acceleration, etc. Google is working on that with every new release.
Especially in games one noticed that the devices lacked in real power on the hardware side. Another problematic decission was the use of the panorama controls. Those are side-scrolling controls with very often vertical endless scrollers inside them. This is actually rather complex to render and I would guess is responsible for most of the badly performing apps around. This is further complicated by the fact that non-developers rarely can grasp intuitively the actual computational cost associated with certain visuals (hence the often cited: WPs minimalist design is easier to compute then Android/iOSs more complex UI elements).
Microsoft was aiming at the possibility to produce cheaper devices. There were citations that the average WP7.5 device only cost $200 to produce. That strategy obviously didn't work out so well. Maybe due to the fact that the devices still were sold at flagship prices.
StevieBallz said:
Especially in games one noticed that the devices lacked in real power on the hardware side. Another problematic decission was the use of the panorama controls. Those are side-scrolling controls with very often vertical endless scrollers inside them. This is actually rather complex to render and I would guess is responsible for most of the badly performing apps around. This is further complicated by the fact that non-developers rarely can grasp intuitively the actual computational cost associated with certain visuals (hence the often cited: WPs minimalist design is easier to compute then Android/iOSs more complex UI elements).
Microsoft was aiming at the possibility to produce cheaper devices. There were citations that the average WP7.5 device only cost $200 to produce. That strategy obviously didn't work out so well. Maybe due to the fact that the devices still were sold at flagship prices.
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That'sbut back to the topic: the fact is that wheter it consumes cpu or not, the average user would like it to be easier to "kill" an application without pressing the "GoBack" button multiple times. That's the main argument. Leave all the CPU, and Core Processor argument behind , cuz WP os deals beautifully with this...
I am happy to announce the project I have been working on. I do not know what direction it will take from here but I thought it was a good time to show it.
A MID, UMPC, tablet, smartphone - anything you want it to be. This is a kind of hybrid between phonebloks/project ara and the nokia n900 series
The wiki should guide you through step by step and answer most questions you may have. I have always thought one of the most important parts of this project is being able to teach others to do this and make it as accessible as possible.
As the wiki mentions, please raise a ticket on the issue tracker if you have a problem. But if you just want to talk about it this thread would be fine and I will try to get back to it from time to time.
Special thanks to people on this forum specifically who made all those Windows Mobile editing toolkits way back and helped me realize what was possible with pocketable devices and move on from there.
Link to SFS MID wiki
I thought I would provide an update here. The project is still ongoing with a mainboard transition from the Raspberry Pi to the Odroid C0 SBC.
The hardware and software has come a long way making for a pleasant experience to use but yet enough flexibility for most situations and users.
As always, you can post here or on the issue tracker if you have any questions or just want to talk about MID development. Thanks and good luck.
This is a 6 month update. The project continues with a switch to the Lattepanda x86 SBC.
More positives than negatives come with the new ecosystem and the future is bright. It is hoped that with the x86 technology the project will become relatable to more people and the architectural reliability will prove to be an advantage.
You can always post here or on the issue tracker if you have any problems, questions or speculation on the future of MID development. Thanks and good luck.
This is one more 6 month update. I am using the Lattepanda x86 SBC exclusively now.
The layout of the devices has been redesigned to be more like a smartphone and there is a new shell available for 3d printing. In addition, the software has undergone an update and there are new development notes including testing with some Raspberry Pi 4 prototypes which ended up being too hot and using too much power. Finally, there are 5 new scripts uploaded and one included with the MID software which deals with multitouch gaming.
It works well but I am hesitant to call the project finished so if you have suggestions let me know.
Hello and welcome to another update on this longrunning project.
The launch of the Raspberry Pi 4 came and went without offering any power savings so the project continued on without it using some alternative platforms. On the dual goal of being able to play PC games, it is only until recently that the 8GB Pi 4 had that potential. Unfortunately there is not enough overhead for Linux gaming even on most low end x86 PC platforms so there is little hope current Pi versions will make for a good PC gaming experience.
If you read the development notes you will see some experiments with portable PC stick hardware running games such as Kerbal Space Program on Linux but those devices were a dead end as far as power savings go. Both in terms of lack of power saving features and in idle and load power draw.
Currently there does not seem to be a small x86 device that has working suspend/sleep/standby mode in Linux which renders the dual goal of a Linux smartphone device that can play modern PC games unattainable.
The VIM3 SBC does have a working suspend mode as well as a wide 5-20v input. This allows for much more battery power and energy without the corresponding
wiring complexity and loss of efficiency that you would have in a device that required "stepping down" the voltage to 5V. "Stepping up" from traditional smartphone and tablet batteries comes with it's own challenges as well. Namely, the effective current limit, maximum available power and conversion inefficiency from such low voltage batteries.
On the gaming front all hope for portable gaming is not lost. I have uploaded a bonus version of Retroarch with VIM3 support to the releases area as well. This release is intended for and works well for the older console systems.
Maybe one day we can get a device with 8GB+ RAM that can play PC games and go to sleep. Until then keep building!
I thought I would slip in and give an update just short of a year. A few patches may be still to come anyway.
The goal of a PC gaming phone-like portable has been largely attained. The Lattepanda Alpha SBC specifically has 8GB RAM and can suspend to save power. With a MID based on it you can do the kinds of things you would do on a smartphone as well as play PC games with a gamepad on the go, keyboard/mouse while docked or perhaps even with the touchscreen. The Lattepanda Delta can suspend and has 4GB RAM and is a cheaper alternative. Recent PC games can be played successfully but I would recommend something like a Steam Deck for cutting edge games. If using Android apps is something you would require in a personal mobile device then the large RAM of the Alpha is something that should make emulation possible. When finished you can put the device to sleep and put it in your rather large pocket.
There is something to be said for a smaller more manageable mobile device that is more the size of a smartphone. Even if that means gaming capability is compromised. The VIM 3 is smaller than the Lattepanda Alpha/Delta and has different USB functionality making for a smaller and simpler overall MID. This is more of a device that you can put in your pocket and hopefully not have it break. You can put a plastic shell around it like a commercial device but you will find that one large enough to give good protection makes the MID too large. I do not consider this a big deal since one of the goals of the project is to put more control into the hands of the user and this includes the realm of repairability. In other words if it breaks you can fix it.
Thus 2 parallel ARM and x86 codebases are being maintained for now. Extensive troubleshooting has been undertaken to fix some long standing hardware
stability problems on both MID platforms as well. Addditionally, all main wiki pages have received an update. Finally, another bonus compiled version of the latest Retroarch source has been added that focuses on PS1 emulation.
A special message for XDA Developers users. Don't throw away your Android phones just yet. As inexpensive as cellular plans are you can keep your phone and tinker with something like this too. But remember that when the automobile was first developed it was considered worse than the horse. Over time it was refined and eventually surpassed the horse as a means of transportation. I think as computer parts become more commoditized ever time something similar will happen and nothing will be able to stop us from putting together a phone ourselves.
I am not sure where it is going to go from here but I look forward to using the devices now that the dream has come true.