Hello,
i just got my hands on the Z3 Compact and took it out to test it on a sunny day.
Back home i noticed that the picture quality is really bad in auto mode!
I made a quick comparison picture to my old phone: a Xiaomi Mi2 (not the S Model) with 8m Camera.
The picture shows the text quality of the Xperia Z Ultra Power Pack which is the best example i can do now.
The automode settings are: ISO-800, F/2, 1/50 Sec, no flash
The Mi2 automode settings are: ISO-488, 1/16 Sec (no data on the F), no flash
Directlink:
http://abload.de/img/neuebitmapoksb8.png
And here the same with manual mode and a lower ISO (100 instead of 800 that was used in auto mode):
The complete settings were: ISO-100, F/2, 1/8 Sec, no flash
Directlink:
http://abload.de/img/dsc_0099emqqy.jpg
Heres another example of a picture i took when i was outside (without zoom, i just cut away some parts to make it smaller):
The automode settings here: ISO-50, F/2, 1/320sec, no flash
Directlink:
http://abload.de/img/dsc_0036lujf6.jpg
Any idea why automode causes such very bad picture quality? Any ideas on how to improve it?
Thank you for help!
Why bother so much about the auto mode? You can take such great pictures in manual mode when you play with the settings. In the end auto mode will never be great, because it does what it says: auto mode, it adjusts the settings to what it thinks is best in each situation.
Playing with the manual mode will also give you more knowledge of basic photography.
Sent from my D5803
Auto mode became better over time on the Z1C, I guess they'll keep improving it. Dunno if they made a step back here.
Dsteppa said:
Why bother so much about the auto mode? You can take such great pictures in manual mode when you play with the settings. In the end auto mode will never be great, because it does what it says: auto mode, it adjusts the settings to what it thinks is best in each situation.
Playing with the manual mode will also give you more knowledge of basic photography.
Sent from my D5803
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Auto mode will always be handy.. no one wants to mess with settings most of the times.. its a phone camera and if i want manual controls i would pick a dslr. Thats why iphone wins in camera department. Take it out and snap a pic instantly with great output. Even on my galaxy s5 i take pictures on auto and i havent seen anyone setting things up manually each and every time to take a damn photo
Auto mode uses a technique called oversampling to gather information with the 20MP sensor, then heavily processes the photo to whatever the software (Sony) decided was best (post-processing). The idea is you get the detail of a 20MP sensor, in a auto-corrected and down-sized 8MP resolution photo. Oversampling is also why the Z3 has a small amount of "lossless" zoom. (ever tried "zooming" with other phone cameras? It usually leaves you with a terrible blob of digital noise)
As with any automatic post-processing, there are pros and cons. The truth is, the software doesn't really know what you're taking a picture of, so it tries to give it's best guess on correcting exposure, colour, noise, etc. The result you're seeing in the auto-mode photo is a result of heavy post-processing (Noise Reduction), bad focus, and camera shake.
The reason your "manual" photo is better is because manual mode drops the post-processing. It also looks like you were able to hold the camera steadier for the manual shot.
"Auto" mode is far from perfect, but it will often save you more times than you know. Over time, you'll learn the strengths and weaknesses of "auto mode", and you'll know when you need to switch to Manual for the better shot. Auto mode can also be easily improved upon via software updates.
PS: A little trick I use to minimize camera shake while taking a photo is to set a quick 2 second self timer. This will allow you time to press the shutter button and then stabilize the phone for minimal "camera shake"
I have read the z3 Compact camera is great, great, great...but yeah I have been grossly underwhelmed by the auto mode. The auto mode is THE mode...sure have a manual mode if you want...if you have time. But I use my phone for quick snaps...QUICK being the operative word. I want to pull it out aim and shoot. My iphone5 took very acceptable pictures. The z3 compact has shown me grainy, bland looking shots in auto.
I don't get why auto mode isn't the most important mode for designers. It's a phone...not a camera...so make the auto mode work
Yeah, camera is definitely underwhelming. That being said though, it's better than most. My Moto X took absolutely horrid shots for the most part.
Crewville96 said:
Yeah, camera is definitely underwhelming. That being said though, it's better than most. My Moto X took absolutely horrid shots for the most part.
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Coming from 2 years on the iphone5...I was under the impression that camera technology was pretty well mastered across the board. iphone makes it look easy. There's even an annoying lag between pressing the button and the shot being taken on the Z3...what the hell is up with that?
Eclypz said:
Auto mode uses a technique called oversampling to gather information with the 20MP sensor, then heavily processes the photo to whatever the software (Sony) decided was best (post-processing). The idea is you get the detail of a 20MP sensor, in a auto-corrected and down-sized 8MP resolution photo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, my z3c is still on the way. I have a question. Will the 8MP pictures I take in Manual mode be oversampled as well?
Because the sensor is still 20MP and if I manually adjust it to take only 8MP pictures what advantage do I have in having a sensor that is 20MP? I never print photos. Only watch it on my phone, laptop or my LED tv which is 1080p and 50" screen. I don't want photos that are too big in file size unless it is benefiting me in some sense other than for the purpose of printing and viewing in very large resolutions. I see that oversampling in auto mode is benefiting from a 20MP sensor but is that the case if I take 8MP pics in manual mode?
coolmalayalee said:
Well, my z3c is still on the way. I have a question. Will the 8MP pictures I take in Manual mode be oversampled as well?
Because the sensor is still 20MP and if I manually adjust it to take only 8MP pictures what advantage do I have in having a sensor that is 20MP? I never print photos. Only watch it on my phone, laptop or my LED tv which is 1080p and 50" screen. I don't want photos that are too big in file size unless it is benefiting me in some sense other than for the purpose of printing and viewing in very large resolutions. I see that oversampling in auto mode is benefiting from a 20MP sensor but is that the case if I take 8MP pics in manual mode?
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Click to collapse
By selecting 8MP in manual mode, all you're doing is resizing the photo from 20MP (post processing). The sensor will always capture at its full resolution.
If you know you only want a 8MP photo, there is a small benefit in resizing the photo at the phone:
The first benefit is obviously file size, but before I get into the second reason, I need to explain something first: A picture that has been converted to JPG is considered to be post processed. The compression that the JPG engine performs means your image loses details and thus has been altered. I know I said above that Manual mode means the image isn't processed, but I really only said that for the sake of explaining things easier. The average user does not consider JPG compression as post processing and they probably don't care to know. The truth is, unless Sony allows us to capture images in RAW format, the act of converting all our images to JPG means our images are all being post processed whether we like it or not. The difference between manual and auto mode is really about "how much" post processing occurs. In manual, Sony is most likely just compressing to JPG (and probably lens distortion correction but I won't get into that now) , and not applying corrections like noise reduction.
As for how it may be beneficial to resize at the phone; JPG compression is usually the final step in post processing. So by resizing at the phone, the theory is the image is captured in [email protected] > resized to 8MP while still in RAW format > compressed to JPG.
This means you benefit from the photo being resized before it is "post processed". In theory, this method should leave you with a higher quality 8MP photo versus resizing from a computer. Resizing from a computer means you're applying post processing to an already "post processed" photo.
For the average user, 8MP is more than enough, however, this is not to say all phone cameras should come in 8MP. Keep in mind that there is a big difference between an image captured by a 8MP sensor vs being captured by a 20MP sensor and then resized to 8MP. The 20MP sensor can capture much more detail with proper/sufficient lighting.
@wooki (OP):
Especially the first comparison "Xperia Z Ultra Power Pack", the one you made with the Z3C is nothing but blurred. So what is it you're trying to show/compare? I mean, yes, may the Z3C doesn't come with the best camera on the market, and yes, the "Auto mode" does not always provide the best results. Not really sure you're into photography or not, but what can be expected from a lens not even half the size of a fingernail? Not too much, right?! Get an SLR with decent lenses and a full frame sensor if you need more/better.
However, the attached fotos were one of the first ones I made with the Z3C (in Auto Mode) and think it's quite ok. No processing, just resized them.
@sxtester
I was comparing my Z3C with my old phone (a 2 year old Xiaomi Mi2) which seems to have a very good auto mode. Was just asking if i was the only one who has had a bad automode experience and if someone knows how to improve it.
How do your pictures look like without resizing?
As i'm owning a WQHD Screen all my automode pictures look very bad!
I don't want to set up the manual mode every time i want to take a picture, this phone has a shutter button to make fast pictures and with the setup phase i lose time even if manual mode gives me excellent pictures.
Eclypz said:
Auto mode uses a technique called oversampling to gather information with the 20MP sensor, then heavily processes the photo to whatever the software (Sony) decided was best (post-processing). The idea is you get the detail of a 20MP sensor, in a auto-corrected and down-sized 8MP resolution photo. Oversampling is also why the Z3 has a small amount of "lossless" zoom. (ever tried "zooming" with other phone cameras? It usually leaves you with a terrible blob of digital noise)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The manual mode uses oversampling as well, if you select a lower resolution. I've compared an auto mode shot with a manual mode shot of the same scene, and both were equal in terms of details and noise. The main difference was that the auto mode shot looks far worse because it tends to use that horrible HDR which just washes out the photo and ruins the contrast to near non-existence. I find that "multi" light metering mode, selectable in manual mode, gives far better results than HDR on this phone.
---------- Post added at 07:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------
Auto:
http://i.imgur.com/er38iZn.jpg
Manual:
http://i.imgur.com/Oqwl3KE.jpg
---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------
Furthermore, the pictures from this phone's camera would look a lot better if Sony used a better algorithm for their oversampling.
Here is a comparison between a 100% crop of an image taken using Sony's oversampling (8mp) (former attachment) and a 100% crop of a photo taken at 20mp, and then downsampled to the 8mp dimensions using Irfanview (latter attachment):
I agree....Sony's software is lacking compared to everybody else. Auto mode seems kind of hit or miss. Their camera sensors are excellent, as I believe the iPhone uses a Sony sensor, but the difference being Apple is able to process better looking images with their software. I also have a iPhone 5s, and I must agree that 7/10 times, I'll get a better looking image from the iPhone. In terms of capturing details, i think Z3C is better (as expected), but all my images from the Z3C are on the "red" side when shooting in auto-mode. In the end, the iPhone comes out with the better looking photo because I'd much rather have better colour re-production over slightly more detail that you wouldn't even notice unless you had a photo to compare against.
I still think the Z3C's camera is on par with the best from Samsung's Galaxy S5 and LG's G3 (Sony sensor). It's way better than my old HTC One M8's "ultrapixel".
On the Android side of things, I think Z3C is still top 3, and Top 5 in the Smartphone world (iPhone and Lumia above it).
wooki said:
@sxtester
How do your pictures look like without resizing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@wooki:
Here you go, all unedited made in Auto Mode:
http://imgur.com/uMiM0Sh
http://imgur.com/0mYsf5U
http://imgur.com/vJ32fjT
http://imgur.com/8g7oJD7
degraaff said:
Here is a comparison between a 100% crop of an image taken using Sony's oversampling (8mp) (former attachment) and a 100% crop of a photo taken at 20mp, and then downsampled to the 8mp dimensions using Irfanview (latter attachment):
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sony's approach looks way better because it doesn't blur that heavily. If I want to blur away all the details, I can still do that myself.
This is a bit off-topic, but I don't really want to start a new thread just to ask such a silly question.
I've been playing with the camera app some more and is there seriously no "rule of thirds grid" in Sony's Camera app? I often like to use the grids to assist in making sure my shot is straight.
Iruwen said:
Sony's approach looks way better because it doesn't blur that heavily. If I want to blur away all the details, I can still do that myself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? Sony's approach is full of over sharpening artifacts and -auras, doesn't look better at all IMO.
One dumb quetion.
If i use another camera APP, it will improve the photo quality?
point_pt said:
One dumb quetion.
If i use another camera APP, it will improve the photo quality?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It depends. I choose CFV-5 and PNG image saving (rrather than JPG) and it looks much better then Superior auto, and sometimes better than Sony's Manual mode.
Ok coming from Samsung , HTC, Asus and iPhone (I know I here you gasp)
I pretty much use my rear camera alot for work purposes, no selfies
Mostly its point and shoot I do and I know the camera on these are for ppl getting the right shot manually due to the settings
Have tried apps on this phone Like :
Camera FV-5 (same kind of results)
Open Camera (which seems to stay active in the background)
Now heres my question if you quickly take a photo, point and shoot (focusing first) using highest resolution
Once you zoom into the taken picture, its all grainy even if its took about 3-4 feet away from you
Now, if you take the same picture with monochrome its a better pic and if focusing on say a bottle with writing
Its more visible to read compared to the colour as the colour looks like its a water painting
Are you guys getting the same results or know preferred settings to use?
Thanks
Try to set the resolution to 12mp to enable the 2x "optical" zoom.
The color sensor is only a 12mp one, the monochrome sensor has 20mp.
If you enable 20mp in settings, the camera will make a monochrome and color photo and merge them into one. This is also the reason why the 20mp photos are a bit blurry or too bright on edges.
So, use 12mp and the grain should be mostly gone.
Here are three shots by me:
https://imgur.com/a/BYf7kIX - played with focus, no aperture feature.
https://imgur.com/a/xA2qURk - just a free hand picture in 12mp without zoom
https://imgur.com/a/RbEdeiI - and the same with 2x optical zoom.
Jannomag said:
Try to set the resolution to 12mp to enable the 2x "optical" zoom.
The color sensor is only a 12mp one, the monochrome sensor has 20mp.
If you enable 20mp in settings, the camera will make a monochrome and color photo and merge them into one. This is also the reason why the 20mp photos are a bit blurry or too bright on edges.
So, use 12mp and the grain should be mostly gone.
Here are three shots by me:
https://imgur.com/a/BYf7kIX - played with focus, no aperture feature.
https://imgur.com/a/xA2qURk - just a free hand picture in 12mp without zoom
https://imgur.com/a/RbEdeiI - and the same with 2x optical zoom.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for comments
Is this with stock camera? stock rom?
as My pics are no where near as good as this on 8.0.0.379(C02)
EwOkie said:
Thanks for comments
Is this with stock camera? stock rom?
as My pics are no where near as good as this on 8.0.0.379(C02)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everything stock, 8.0.0.370 on VTR-L29C432, stock EMUI camera.
Can you show some examples?
Desk is about 4-5 feet away from me when taking these shots
Sunny outside
Just normal photo and putting focus on the bottles as shown (seen in zoomed photo)
You can clearly see they look terrible apart from monochrome
No settings have been touched apart from resolution
Zoom is about 4.6x
Monochrome
12MP
20MP
Zoomed in
I put some crap on the desk but if you can see the text is visible on some stuff to give you an idea
Using 3x zoom in the camera doesn't switch to the 80mm lens. It just gives a crop from the 40mp main sensor.
Is there a way to actually use the 3x lens?
In my case to make it work I force Focus, after that i can see the swap between lenses.
Horayken said:
In my case to make it work I force Focus, after that i can see the swap between lenses.
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How do you force focus? I tired manual focus and it still didn't change lenses when going from 1 to 3x
viper98 said:
How do you force focus? I tired manual focus and it still didn't change lenses when going from 1 to 3x
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just tap somewhere in the picture and it will change to the optical zoom lens.
djlukas1983 said:
Just tap somewhere in the picture and it will change to the optical zoom lens.
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Click to collapse
That doesn't do anything but use a crop from the 40mp sensor to give a fake "zoom". You would get the same results using the 40mp mode and cropping the image yourself
I'm convinced the optical zoom lens exists for nothing but marketing. The only lens on the back that is ever used for any photos is the middle lens.
Maybe it is something weird with mine. You can check this by covering the other lenses with your finger
viper98 said:
That doesn't do anything but use a crop from the 40mp sensor to give a fake "zoom". You would get the same results using the 40mp mode and cropping the image yourself
I'm convinced the optical zoom lens exists for nothing but marketing. The only lens on the back that is ever used for any photos is the middle lens.
Maybe it is something weird with mine. You can check this by covering the other lenses with your finger
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Click to collapse
You must use it in enough bright environment because it won't switch to zoom lens when it's not enough bright.
viper98 said:
That doesn't do anything but use a crop from the 40mp sensor to give a fake "zoom". You would get the same results using the 40mp mode and cropping the image yourself
I'm convinced the optical zoom lens exists for nothing but marketing. The only lens on the back that is ever used for any photos is the middle lens.
Maybe it is something weird with mine. You can check this by covering the other lenses with your finger
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dude, everyone can see the lens switching, the telephoto one have OIS, i use the zoom all the time, if i cover the telephoto lens i cant see anything, so yes the telephoto is fully functional and not a made up marketing, in pie they even added a toggle to the HDR mode so you can get HDR pictures using it faster. (in adroid oreo you can manually zoom until 3x on HDR but now alot easier). the only times you cant use it and the phone will switch back to the main lens, is:
1. At Night or when theres not enough light.
2.If you try to focus a object that is just too close.
djlukas1983 said:
You must use it in enough bright environment because it won't switch to zoom lens when it's not enough bright.
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Click to collapse
I was wondering why my indoor 3x zoom pics were so poor. I had tried covering the zoom lens in the past, proving that it actually does switch between the two lenses. What I didn't realize until now, is that when the camera doesn't have enough light, the zoom lens isn't used and the 3x becomes a digital zoom using the main (middle) lens. You can easily see this by turning on the 3x zoom, covering it up, and shifting a live view from a bright window to a dark area inside - when pointing outside the lens is blocked, but when you swing around and point the camera inside you can see the image (because it is no longer using the 2x lens).
That explains the poor indoor zoom shots I've been taking - thanks!!
Now I still need to find out what the monochrome lens is actually doing in colour photos. Playing with blocking the lens only seems to have an effect in monochrome mode, but it is supposed to contribute to capturing all photos. Any suggestions...?
I'm considering buying the Nokia 9 and I am wondering if the camera can use the depth changing feature (bokeh) when taking monochrome pictures. I really enjoyed the monochrome camera on my old Huawei P10, and adding bokeh on black and white photos would be nice.
I know it's an old post, but for the ones wondering, there is no Depht setting for monochrome picture. Also, the picture is taken with one of the side B/W sensor, but the screen show what the centered sensor see. So in the end the photo is not centered as seen on screen when the photo was taken.
The thing is ... if the Nokia 9 PureView when shooting in black and white, it does so only using hardware, this is its three monochrome lenses (as it was said that Huawei Mate 10 Pro) or on the contrary (as it seems be that it does) uses the 5 lenses, the 3 monochromes and the two RGB and then desatura with software filter the image ...
If the case, it is confirmed that it is the latter, without problem in the depth map, in fact it seems better option to shoot the Pro mode (capture in RAW) and then in the edition from Adobe Lighroom desaturate the image, without being deceived, since "purely" by hardware, it seems "not to carry it out" in the same way that when the camera captures in color, the five lenses are always used together
it uses the 3 monochrome sensors.. I don't know who tells the opposite... the preview before you shot is from center rgb sensor desaturated.. but if you cover the 3 monochrome sensors and shot.. innthe start you ll see the image of preview.. but when fusing complete you'll see only a black picture
I discovered something strange with my S20 FE. When I open the camera and try the ultra-wide, the wide and the zoom, the last camera module is never used! I tried this by blocking the cameras with my fingers. So the middle camera is used for both the wide and zoom mode, which means that the device does not have an optical zoom camera OR the optical zoom works in a different way than I thought!
I also tried to take some pictures while covering the cameras, just to see if the viewfinder uses different cameras than the ones that are used for the actual shoot, but the result does not change (zoom photos are taken using the wide).
So here are my questions:
1) What is the bottom camera used for?
2) How is there an optical zoom if both the wide and zoom photos are taken using the same sensor?
3) Is this the same sensor/approach like in S20 which uses an 64MP sensor to shoot 3X hybrid zoom?
4) Anyone that has used the bottom camera to shoot anything? Are the specs wrong?
I've got the 5G version with the Snapdragon 865.
UPDATE!
The bottom camera is used when zooming more than 10X!!! This makes things more complicated!
atg2x said:
UPDATE!
The bottom camera is used when zooming more than 10X!!! This makes things more complicated!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, the 3X camera works when there's enough light, otherwise, the main camera will be used.
atg2x said:
I discovered something strange with my S20 FE. When I open the camera and try the ultra-wide, the wide and the zoom, the last camera module is never used! I tried this by blocking the cameras with my fingers. So the middle camera is used for both the wide and zoom mode, which means that the device does not have an optical zoom camera OR the optical zoom works in a different way than I thought!
I also tried to take some pictures while covering the cameras, just to see if the viewfinder uses different cameras than the ones that are used for the actual shoot, but the result does not change (zoom photos are taken using the wide).
So here are my questions:
1) What is the bottom camera used for?
2) How is there an optical zoom if both the wide and zoom photos are taken using the same sensor?
3) Is this the same sensor/approach like in S20 which uses an 64MP sensor to shoot 3X hybrid zoom?
4) Anyone that has used the bottom camera to shoot anything? Are the specs wrong?
I've got the 5G version with the Snapdragon 865.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1) The bottom camera is the 3X optical zoom.
2) As I mentioned above, depends how much light you have.
3) The zoom sensor of s20/s20+ is different, they don't have optical zoom , just hybrid.
4) The camera works perfectly, daylight photos, night photos with wnough light, moon photos.