Database Develop

TY TN II review

After over one year of use I just wanted to write few lines about my impression of this PDA.
I travel a lot and I thought that a PDA could be helpful to keep in touch and do the IT chores while on the go. I was very wrong and I regret having bought the damn thing. The device tries to do many things but none of them well. In retrospective it sounded too good to be true.
At the beginning I did make a point of using it to its best potential but after a while I got so tired and annoyed with it that I have used it mostly like just any other phone.
I thought I would give myself some time to get accustomed to the complexity of the device before jumping to conclusions.
Over one year later and I still find it incredibly cumbersome and totally user unfriendly. The guys at HTC should go to Apple to get a crush course in making something user friendly.
Here are just a few things. The list is way longer but I would have to go back and try most functions to recall all the flaws.
- It's super slow. I am no super fast teenage geek but I am always waiting for the stupid thing to react to any command I give. It is very annoying and it's like stepping back to the time of the 286 PCs. The speed is archaic.
- The buttons controls are very difficult to feel with the touch and are very cumbersome to operate. Especially the side ones. I am sure that even blind people would have problems using them.
- Windows mobile is as bad as Microsoft gets. It's slow, counter intuitive, user unfriendly. Early Vista at the power of ten!
- Window media player is a joke. I have been using the PDA to listen to music in the car and it's a miracle I have not crashed while trying to select some music yet.
- The touch screen is also very bad and difficult to use. A lot of the commands are way too small for a man's finger. It is very difficult to select something on first attempt.
- To open a running program is difficult. One has to press the top right menu and than select what is running by touch only. The bar is about 4 mm high and it's very difficult to select using one hand. One cannot select by using the scroll bar and button.
- During phone calls the screen goes out quickly and to get it back one has to look for the hidden button on the side, very bad.
- Voice recognition sucks. Since the controls are so bad I now use the voice recognition most times. It's rare that the damn machine get it right on first attempt. Repeating the name twice helps but not always. I end up having to raise the tone as if I was yelling. Very embarrassing in public.
- The GPS take a long time to get the satellites even when the data has been updated.
- Active sync is a disaster. The guy that design it should be shot. I have given up on it altogether. I had to buy small software to access the data in the PDA and memory card.
Active sync could just not do the most elementary operation in a simple and straightforward way.
- The booting upon starting is the longest I have ever seen. Switching it off is also a chore
The list goes on but I am getting annoyed just to think about it all. This is the first and last product I’ll ever buy from HTC. Unless you are a geek that gets pleasure messing with IT devices do not buy it. Its use will take an unhealthy amount of your time. It will not help your life, it will waste a lot of your time and annoy you in the process.
Stay away from it!

My phone works perfect, it is a delight to use, does everything you mentioned above, great to reasonably well. It is fast, user friendly and I can't wait until I can upgrade to the TP II
My advice to you, since you are clueless, get the ipod that makes phone calls, it is built and over marketed especially for clueless people.

Agreed with denco7,
My HTC Kaiser (TyTn II) is also working fine. It is a great QVGA 2.8" phone!
ActiveSync works and simply works, I have never got any issue like you described.
GPS works, although TT7 is slower than TT6, but thats TT problem, not the phone.
I found Opera Mini works briliant with the D-Pad, which is much better than D-Pad-less phone. You know, press button to zoom, back to unzoom, scroll with D-Pad ... all one handed.
Screen goes out during call? Get a clue You knew this website, it should be the best resource.
My suggestion, dont use PDA Because it might be too complicated for you.

I like my TyTN II.
Maybe some of the things you think missed, you could configure them another way to get the most of the device. I think I'll never finish to get more and more from it. And I exhausted a P4350 before changing to the Kaiser.

denco7 said:
My phone works perfect, it is a delight to use, does everything you mentioned above, great to reasonably well. It is fast, user friendly and I can't wait until I can upgrade to the TP II
My advice to you, since you are clueless, get the ipod that makes phone calls, it is built and over marketed especially for clueless people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The PDA was also used by a friend of mine who is a blackberry user and talented software developer with many years of experience in IT. He did notice the same things and at times the thing did drive him crazy too.
My friend is also a guy that has switched to Linux long time ago. I have been too lazy and suffered in silence with MS crap but hopefully I will find the time to invest in changing for the better.
My friend impressions made me realize that I am not clueless as you say. In fact being a marine engineer I have dealt with equipment of all sorts for many years.
The PDA is designed by geeks for geeks. It is not a product for normal people. Anybody that buys this device has to spend many, many hours tying to sort it out and make it work better. I did that at the beginning and downloaded many fixes and upgrades. The very existance of this website and the number of people that use it is an indication that this PDA is not a product you switch on and just use. Very far from it.
I think you are like many people that after spending all that money don't want to admit that they got a lemon. The fact that you want to upgrade is a clear indication that you are not that satisfied with the gadget.
Just pick it up and slide the keyboard slightly. It takes 4.8 sec for the display to go from vertical to horizontal and back. If that is fast then you must be very slow.
Cheers

Yeah I also suggest you get an iphone. It's for people just like you.
No customization and power-user options, but your grandma can figure out the basic PDA functions.
TytnII has been great for me.

This is a negative and boring thread from the op! With some effort you can do a lot with the tytn2 as well as the tytn1! Very good devices!

I very much enjoy my Kaiser. I had some of the problems the OP had when I was running the AT&T stock ROM (with bloatware), but all that changed when I started using custom ROMs. The Kaiser is actually a very capable device, the only reason it underperforms is because it's hardware isn't fully taken advantage of (but even that's improving now). Once I flash a ROM and spend a whole 10 minutes customizing the device to how I like it, it runs like a dream.
OP: As the others have said in this thread, if you aren't willing to tweak the device, and customize the living crap out of it in order to get a faster Kaiser, maybe a feature phone or iPhone would be more suitable for you.
Dave
PS: (I have a 286, and it runs fine!)

I have a tytn, tytnII, titan, touch pro and a fuze. I must admit that every one of these devices were less than spectacular in the as-shipped form from the service provider. Thats why I found this site so I could make them all perform up to their hype.
Every one of them, thanks to the wonderful developers here, will outperform an iphown now. I have had very little problems like the OP described that were not simply fixed by changing a setting here or there. I like my tilt better than any of the others I have had (except the fuze.)

My 8525 (TyTn) works great and it has less power than the TyTnII. You can not get the most out of the phone unless you get rid of the stock OS. That's why XDA Devs rocks. Once the stock OS is gone - the phones rock!

mikechannon said:
This is the Kaiser forum. A forum dedicated to supporting Kaiser owners and providing answers to specific problems.
I'm sure you can see that this is not a supportive thread for TyTn II owners.
I'm not actually sure that expressing views about strongly disliking HTC and WM is a wise idea on a website dedicated to both those things.
However, and lest I be accused of wielding evil Moderator censorship powers, I will move this thread to off-topic. There it will take up its place accumulating wise and sensible contributions to the debate.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi Mike,
It's not about being supportive or not. It's about giving a broad range of perspective so if tomorrow somebody wants to buy the device they can search for information and have a better idea of what they are getting into.
Unfortunately at the time I bought mine the information available was somehow biased towards people who think that is ok to spend 750 $ for a gadget that right away needs all sorts of non OEM twicks and upgrades to perform close to its marketing claims.
In any sector or product if one buys at the very top end of the price range should expect to end up with something that works well right away.
The TY TN II does not. HTC is a company with great potential but it should take a lot longer before releasing a product such this.
I belive that censorship does not help the people behind this site that are happy with the product either. My post is not off topic. They are first hand comments on the device from somebody that owns one, just like anybody else here.
Because of lack of unbiased information many people like me or even less prepared to mess with the device will buy it and up here nagging everyone else for help. Even for the silliest problems.
Let's be clear. This is a very niche product, HTC marketing pitch is misleading. It is not a piece of consumer goods suitable for the majority of people. It has to become a pet project for the buyer otherwise will not delivery to it's full potential.
I would suggest you put this thread in a very accessible location.
I am sorry if have hurt any TY TN II lovers
I suspect that a lot of people here see the device like their own baby.
Cheers

gogol said:
Agreed with denco7,
My HTC Kaiser (TyTn II) is also working fine. It is a great QVGA 2.8" phone!
ActiveSync works and simply works, I have never got any issue like you described.
GPS works, although TT7 is slower than TT6, but thats TT problem, not the phone.
I found Opera Mini works briliant with the D-Pad, which is much better than D-Pad-less phone. You know, press button to zoom, back to unzoom, scroll with D-Pad ... all one handed.
Screen goes out during call? Get a clue You knew this website, it should be the best resource.
My suggestion, dont use PDA Because it might be too complicated for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't want to get this thread to go on and on. The purpose of my post is to just offer an alternative perspective on the PDA. Without it, anybody that stumbles on this site may be lead to think that it is a great PDA. Indeed it is for people that are willing, knowledgeable and happy to mess with it. I don't think that the majority of people fit that category.
I believe that most people when they spend top dollars expect to buy a piece of equipment that works at its best right out of the box. After all PDAs and many other gadgets should make life easier not more complicated. That is something often forgotten.
Your appreciation of Active Sync sounds very odd to my engineering mind always appreciating things that work in a simple and logic manner. I'll comment on this one because is one of my "favorite" about the device and MS.
How can Active Sync be good if you have to install it in every computer you have to exchange data with (actually you can only install it on 2 PCs only!!). That to me is totally counter intuitive, user unfriendly and simply stupid. I should be able to roam the world and exchange data with any PC and Macs by just plugging in without having to install anything. That's what happens with most other gadgets cameras etc. How is it possible that a 750 $ device cannot do such elementary thing out of the box. It's simply unbelievable and as I said very odd to see that there are so many people that are totally fine with it and actually like the feature.
The TY TN II and any top end PDAs also cater to people like me that travel extensively and to different countries. How such elementary need to exchange data in a simple way can be overseen???
If I had know that such basic feature was not available I would never have bought the thing. The problem is that this any many other points about the device are some kind of dirty secrets that are not been told and were not available when I was about to buy the device.
Luckily I found Softick Card Export and solved the problem of accessing the PDA with any computer as if it was an external hard drive. I recommend it.
But again, after I spent 750 $ I should not have to buy and install non OEM software to download a file to a friend computer.
Come on guys, MS does not even pay you! You are paying them!

mikechannon said:
Well yes in the interests of allowing different points of view, the thread has been kept, we are all entitled to a reasoned point of view.
However IMHO it is off-topic in the sense that keeping it in the TyTn II forum which is specifically to provide help for those who already have a TyTn II would be inappropriate. I did consider the General forum, but againthat is for those who already own an HTC phone and are seeking support perhaps for Windows Mobile issues.
So by elimination if nothing else "off-topic" was the choice. Those searching the likes of Google will still find it regardless of the forum it's in.
I still have my doubts that this is appropriate as a forum to choose for such a review/feedback because it can encourage flaming type posts. I'm sure you know what I mean - would you go to a Rolls Royce owners site to express your views about why they are not good cars? Maybe you would, but I think it would be better to choose a site that reviews different brands, rather than telling folk who already own the product that you think what they have is no good. I doubt folk trying to choose a product would consider a dedicated site to be an unbiased place to gather reliable reviews.
Mike
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mike,
I happen to be one of those Rolls Royce owners (I wish!) that's why I think I should have a say on this site. My views are counter current that's all. I don't feel undermined here despite being a totally "visible minority". If people were to get inflamed about it then there is always the almighty moderator that should straighten things out.
I still think my post does not belong to the off topic section because I think the view of somebody like myself can be beneficial to the majority here. I know that this could be difficult to acknowledge for somebody.
On the wake of the recent purchase and proud of my shiny new device, in the first 6 months of ownership of the Ty TN II I was like most other people here, reading, downloading, twicking. After a while I realized that what I was doing was going against the very reason I bought the device in the first place which was make my life easier and make me save time.
At that point and tired of the constant work that the machine demanded I gave up on it. I bought a new laptop and used the PDA like a phone and navigator only.
If I had found posts like mine before I would have made my natural progression earlier and I would have saved myself a lot of time and headaches.
I am sure there are other people in that position and they should be able to benefit from opinions like mine without having to Google them. To the hard core PDArers it should make no difference. I understand there is a pleasure in molding a machine to you own specification. I respect that; years ago I would have kept on doing it.
I hope you understand my plea and thanks for your work. I and many others did benefit from this great site.
Unfortunately I don't think that I can ethically contribute to the HTC or MS cause in a positive way. The fact that they created the need for a site like this is totally unacceptable.
I believe that it is wrong to offer volunteer work to greedy corporations that totally don't give a damn about their customer base. HTC and MS are clear examples.
I wish the talented work of people like XDA-developers will go towards developing software and service for no profit organizations and not to patch up the shortcomings and disservice of these corporations.
Bill Gates has become a philanthropist to wash his sins. I hope his example will be followed by all the other big fish in the corporate world.
Cheers

olliric said:
I don't want to get this thread to go on and on. The purpose of my post is to just offer an alternative perspective on the PDA. Without it, anybody that stumbles on this site may be lead to think that it is a great PDA. Indeed it is for people that are willing, knowledgeable and happy to mess with it. I don't think that the majority of people fit that category.
I believe that most people when they spend top dollars expect to buy a piece of equipment that works at its best right out of the box. After all PDAs and many other gadgets should make life easier not more complicated. That is something often forgotten.
Your appreciation of Active Sync sounds very odd to my engineering mind always appreciating things that work in a simple and logic manner. I'll comment on this one because is one of my "favorite" about the device and MS.
How can Active Sync be good if you have to install it in every computer you have to exchange data with (actually you can only install it on 2 PCs only!!). That to me is totally counter intuitive, user unfriendly and simply stupid. I should be able to roam the world and exchange data with any PC and Macs by just plugging in without having to install anything. That's what happens with most other gadgets cameras etc. How is it possible that a 750 $ device cannot do such elementary thing out of the box. It's simply unbelievable and as I said very odd to see that there are so many people that are totally fine with it and actually like the feature.
The TY TN II and any top end PDAs also cater to people like me that travel extensively and to different countries. How such elementary need to exchange data in a simple way can be overseen???
If I had know that such basic feature was not available I would never have bought the thing. The problem is that this any many other points about the device are some kind of dirty secrets that are not been told and were not available when I was about to buy the device.
Luckily I found Softick Card Export and solved the problem of accessing the PDA with any computer as if it was an external hard drive. I recommend it.
But again, after I spent 750 $ I should not have to buy and install non OEM software to download a file to a friend computer.
Come on guys, MS does not even pay you! You are paying them!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So, you're saying that with any other phone you can just connect it to a PC and transfer all the data on the fly? Well, with nokias you can't, you have to install the huge nokia pc suite. At least active sync is only a few megs, so even with a slow connection you can still get it fast. And, i still think active sync is the best or at least the simplest way to synchronize contacts / appointments / notes and emails.
If you want to exchange files i would advice to forget active sync, use a micro sd card reader, it's much simpler and faster.
About your first post, i understand your frustration, but everyone here will tell you, including me, that any windows mobile device is way more powerfull than any nokia, iphone or blackberry. But even with those you still have to know how to use them.

jaugusto said:
So, you're saying that with any other phone you can just connect it to a PC and transfer all the data on the fly? Well, with nokias you can't, you have to install the huge nokia pc suite. At least active sync is only a few megs, so even with a slow connection you can still get it fast. And, i still think active sync is the best or at least the simplest way to synchronize contacts / appointments / notes and emails.
If you want to exchange files i would advice to forget active sync, use a micro sd card reader, it's much simpler and faster.
About your first post, i understand your frustration, but everyone here will tell you, including me, that any windows mobile device is way more powerfull than any nokia, iphone or blackberry. But even with those you still have to know how to use them.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In this day and age am I too demanding to expect to be able to read and exchange data with my PDA and any computer? The fact that the very little Softick card export software does it very easily shows that I am not asking much. There are no technological hurdles whatsoever. Why having to complicate things, switching off the device, pulling cards on and off, maybe damaging something in the process.
It is one of the features I needed right away and I don't think I am alone there. It should not take a great deal of imagination or creativity to figure this out. What are the HTC or MS designers been thinking?
I just don't see any good reasons for the lack of such basic features. The only reason I see is corporate greed that calls for gadgets and software that don't quite work so people keep on buying new ones.
We are a bunch of consumer cows being milked, I am afraid that's the sad reality.
The fact the the potential of a MS based PDA is greater than the competition does not make me feel any better. However, thanks for trying to help and for the kind words

olliric said:
In this day and age am I too demanding to expect to be able to read and exchange data with my PDA and any computer? The fact that the very little Softick card export software does it very easily shows that I am not asking much. There are no technological hurdles whatsoever. Why having to complicate things, switching off the device, pulling cards on and off, maybe damaging something in the process.
It is one of the features I needed right away and I don't think I am alone there. It should not take a great deal of imagination or creativity to figure this out. What are the HTC or MS designers been thinking?
I just don't see any good reasons for the lack of such basic features. The only reason I see is corporate greed that calls for gadgets and software that don't quite work so people keep on buying new ones.
We are a bunch of consumer cows being milked, I am afraid that's the sad reality.
The fact the the potential of a MS based PDA is greater than the competition does not make me feel any better. However, thanks for trying to help and for the kind words
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I prefer to think that technology is being developed, rather than big companies are just "milking us". Every new product is an evolution from something done before, not only with technology, but with everything manufactured in the capitalist markets we live in.
Basically, i think we have two choices: ware out our equipment untill we really need a new one (in case of a mobile phone for me i would say that it's about 3 years), or sell our semi-new equipment and buy a new one every year or so. I usually choose the first one, but i'm not always sure that it is the cheapest.
About speed, I know that the tytn II's are far from being the best phone HTC made, heck, my old magician (qtek s110) was way faster. But it didn't have to deal with gps, wifi, 3G, HSDPA, hardware keyboard, etc. They're only three years apart from each other, and look at the differences!
I actually agree with you that the kaiser is slow for a 2007 PDA, but it can do a lot. So, like everyone else in this forum, i've been reading, and trying, and failing, and trying again. The best Rom i've tried is shifu's v8, i do like it a lot. And the advantage of WM is that you can really do everything you want to change the look and the way you interact with your phone, and there are thousands of programs to do whatever you need your phone to do.
There's so many software out there, that it is hard to get to the best one for you. Some prefer SPB Mobile Shell3, i prefer Manila 2D. There's also the new Titanium in WM 6.5, PointUI, Throttle Launcher.... I compare this situation to the photography industry: there are hundreds of camera models, most of them give very similar image quality for the same price, but if you visit photography forums you'll find people that just can't get used to a certain model of a certain brand, and normally for reasons you wouldn't even think of.
That doesn't turn that model into a lemon, but usually makes it more special to the ones that actually like it.
So, my question is, is there any phone on the market that works like a simple usb pen? Does the iphone do that? Blackberrys? And you could use bluetooth to transfer data, have you tried that?
Just trying to help, as i don't consider myself a geek, but i do prefer windows mobile over symbian.

jaugusto said:
So, my question is, is there any phone on the market that works like a simple usb pen? Does the iphone do that? Blackberrys? And you could use bluetooth to transfer data, have you tried that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually yes the BBs do USB File transfer when plugged into a PC with nothing extra installed. You get prompted on the device to enable Mass Storage Mode.

jaugusto said:
I prefer to think that technology is being developed, rather than big companies are just "milking us". Every new product is an evolution from something done before, not only with technology, but with everything manufactured in the capitalist markets we live in.
Basically, i think we have two choices: ware out our equipment untill we really need a new one (in case of a mobile phone for me i would say that it's about 3 years), or sell our semi-new equipment and buy a new one every year or so. I usually choose the first one, but i'm not always sure that it is the cheapest.
About speed, I know that the tytn II's are far from being the best phone HTC made, heck, my old magician (qtek s110) was way faster. But it didn't have to deal with gps, wifi, 3G, HSDPA, hardware keyboard, etc. They're only three years apart from each other, and look at the differences!
I actually agree with you that the kaiser is slow for a 2007 PDA, but it can do a lot. So, like everyone else in this forum, i've been reading, and trying, and failing, and trying again. The best Rom i've tried is shifu's v8, i do like it a lot. And the advantage of WM is that you can really do everything you want to change the look and the way you interact with your phone, and there are thousands of programs to do whatever you need your phone to do.
There's so many software out there, that it is hard to get to the best one for you. Some prefer SPB Mobile Shell3, i prefer Manila 2D. There's also the new Titanium in WM 6.5, PointUI, Throttle Launcher.... I compare this situation to the photography industry: there are hundreds of camera models, most of them give very similar image quality for the same price, but if you visit photography forums you'll find people that just can't get used to a certain model of a certain brand, and normally for reasons you wouldn't even think of.
That doesn't turn that model into a lemon, but usually makes it more special to the ones that actually like it.
So, my question is, is there any phone on the market that works like a simple usb pen? Does the iphone do that? Blackberrys? And you could use bluetooth to transfer data, have you tried that?
Just trying to help, as i don't consider myself a geek, but i do prefer windows mobile over symbian.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think corporations do plan to make every gadget quickly outdated. Hardware and software companies help each other in that regard. Software is designed to require more and more computing power even though is often not necessary. We could be a lot farther ahead after 20 years of consumer computers. MS is probably the main cause of this troubled development and we are still stuck with it. Window mobile may be better than others but is still very far from being good. That was also the idea of a MS project manager friend of mine who eventually left Seattle and MS. I remember venting my frustration with him and he had no excuse to offer.
I did do ROM upgrades early on but then I had to remove them after developing other problems. If one day I run into somebody that will do it for me I may give them another try. I just had it with this PDA I don't to waste anymore time.
I have a lot of other things in my life and I just don't want to spend time on something that should save me time. It just does not make any sense to me.
When this PDA will crap out I'll be very careful of what I may buy. I think I have learned the lesson. The only thing that I have appreciated is the navigator which is neither HTC or MS. I travel a lot so I keep the bastard only for that. I have to bear the bulk and weight of it for navigation and the occasional email.
I don't know if there are PDAs that can be used like a USB pen. I really hope so. It is such a simple thing, if there aren't any then it's really bad out there.
Thanks for your help
Cheers

I agree with everything you posted originally. Although, it's not HTC's fault as much as it is Microsoft's. I happen to love the G1
I've had a tilt for a year now and, while flashing ROMs does make it bearable, Windows Mobile just sucks in general imo.

mbarvian said:
I agree with everything you posted originally. Although, it's not HTC's fault as much as it is Microsoft's. I happen to love the G1
I've had a tilt for a year now and, while flashing ROMs does make it bearable, Windows Mobile just sucks in general imo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great to hear that I am not the only unhappy here. Actually I believe there are a lot more but they don't want to admit it.
So you guys de-lurk yourself and get it off your chest. You'll feel better. After all we just bought the PDA, we did not do anything terrible. There wasn't much choice anyway. If I made it or the OS then I would feel really bad about myself.
Cheers

Did I buy the wrong phone after all?!?

When I originally chose the successor to my aging gSmart phone, I did a lot(!) of research on functionality, features and technological viability.
But somehow it never appeared to me to check out the viability of the underlying Operating System (WinMo) itself - given my early history with PalmOS and how Palm Inc. had just surrendered to Microzoft over nite, it never dawned on me that WinMo itself might one day share the same fate as the doomed Palm Operating System.
But now I stumbled across this Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile
Now did I just spend $800 on a phone (and am about to waste another $100 on renewing my non-transferable licenses) that won't have any Operating System Updates coming past 2010?!
In that article HTC is alleged to not just be the greatest supplier of WinMo phones, with 80% they're pretty much *it* - meaning no HTC no WinMo phone market no more.
Now what does HTC say about their commitment to the WinMo platform?
And if HTC decides not to release e.g. WM7 for the HD2, will the ROM cookers of XDA come to our aid and port for us (please) one of those leaked versions?
So many questions and so few answers

WM will still be developed. ROM updates will be released. WM7 will be released for the HD2 probably officially and for free. I really don't see the problem. Besides the HTC Sense hides WM so much that if there wasn't the start icon on the screen you wouldn't even notice it works on WM...

gregormax said:
WM will still be developed. ROM updates will be released. WM7 will be released for the HD2 probably officially and for free. I really don't see the problem. Besides the HTC Sense hides WM so much that if there wasn't the start icon on the screen you wouldn't even notice it works on WM...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Ever spoken to an OS/2 user lately or watch the calisthenics of an Amiga user when trying to perform such mundane tasks like trying to run a GigaByte database application on his systm?
Ever watched an Atari user trying to download a 300MB file from the Internet?
Seen a Palm User playing Adobe Flash videos lately?
I could go on like this, but it is naive at best to have the attitude "because I don't see my Operating system during daily use, I don't have to worry about getting support for it..."

Microsoft have rested on their laurels for too long, and WM7 might be too far away to do any good. But don't worry, WM6.6 is just around the corner.... What is that gonna bring???
Android has come from nowhere, fueled by the Iphone?
WM is just cluncky right now, HTC can only cover over the little cracks of WM, but the big cracks still exist. One day soon, even HTC will say "Windows... ahhh Feck it!!!"
I've always poo-pooed Android because I would not want to leave the WM apps I have on my device. But those apps I have are apps that rectify WM shortcomings in the first place - shortcomings that don't appear on Android.
There are only two apps I can't live without and would keep me using WM a device, and they are My Sport Training and My Personal Diet. And in 2010 they are going to be ported over to Android. When I see them on Android, I will sit up....
I just think all the other operating systems are getting more polished, but WM is still a turd. And an old turd at that....
A final point that has just come to me.... People say that WM allows you to alter the settings and just tinker.... why? Because it is crap and you need to spend so much time getting it right? Because people here at forums like this can do better and produce software better than MS or HTC????
Am I ranting??? Am I coming to the end of WM?
Discuss...

pharao said:
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's particularly offensive and you should apologise to gregormax immediately for that!
The "article" you linked suggest that it may be possible that windows mobile will no longer be developed. It's an analyst suggesting a possibility - it is not fact, or even likely.
You should read the whole thing again, but don't take it as gospel just because an analyst was "quoted" on a wiki page.

pharao said:
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Ever spoken to an OS/2 user lately or watch the calisthenics of an Amiga user when trying to perform such mundane tasks like trying to run a GigaByte database application on his systm?
Ever watched an Atari user trying to download a 300MB file from the Internet?
Seen a Palm User playing Adobe Flash videos lately?
I could go on like this, but it is naive at best to have the attitude "because I don't see my Operating system during daily use, I don't have to worry about getting support for it..."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good analogies... My Amiga 500 Plus had a 170mb hardrive. Huge!!!!! I only filled 40mb of it! lol... And I could run a country off that! And that was only 18 years ago... LOL

I don't see what the fuss is about. What more do you want it to do?
It sends emails, sms (some times ) & mms
Connects to the internet.
Has wifi
Can be used as a router
Takes photos & video
Plays videos
Has weather & stocks
Finger friendly (If you say its not you have chubby fingers and should start eating lettice)
Plays games
Theres loads more. So what if WM7 doesn't come out on this it's a great phone as it is (apart from sms issue)

What more do I want it to do? I can think of a lot I would like my handheld to do in the future. I want it to show actual video of the road I'm driving down with a big orange stripe telling me where to go. That's the navigation of the future. I want it to stream HD video flawlessly, from every possible source. I want it to play music and have a DAC and preamp as good as a high end car/home stereo. I want it to call the police when it gets stolen and tell them where it is. I want to be able to think of words and have them appear on the screen, same with opening applications. I want it to be incredibly easy to use and predict what I'm going to do before I do it. I want it to tell me that my favorite Cheesesteak restaurant is going out of business in a week so I better swing by for a last sandwich before it's too late. I want it to clock me in at work when I walk in the door and send a message to them when it determines I won't make it on time.
I don't hate WM and Sense 2.5 right now at all, my phone does more than anybody else's around me but there is no way I would be happy with it a decade from now. I bet if you look back at a phone you were totally happy with ten years ago that you wouldn't want it in your pocket today.
Microsoft hasn't lost yet but they need to get to work and they need to do it fast, that is if they want to compete. Maybe they don't care about mobile any more. That's OK too, other companies do and will care.

balane said:
What more do I want it to do? I can think of a lot I would like my handheld to do in the future. I want it to show actual video of the road I'm driving down with a big orange stripe telling me where to go. That's the navigation of the future. I want it to stream HD video flawlessly, from every possible source. I want it to play music and have a DAC and preamp as good as a high end car/home stereo. I want it to call the police when it gets stolen and tell them where it is. I want to be able to think of words and have them appear on the screen, same with opening applications. I want it to be incredibly easy to use and predict what I'm going to do before I do it. I want it to tell me that my favorite Cheesesteak restaurant is going out of business in a week so I better swing by for a last sandwich before it's too late. I want it to clock me in at work when I walk in the door and send a message to them when it determines I won't make it on time.
I don't hate WM and Sense 2.5 right now at all, my phone does more than anybody else's around me but there is no way I would be happy with it a decade from now. I bet if you look back at a phone you were totally happy with ten years ago that you wouldn't want it in your pocket today.
Microsoft hasn't lost yet but they need to get to work and they need to do it fast, that is if they want to compete. Maybe they don't care about mobile any more. That's OK too, other companies do and will care.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
u forgot making coffee...

pharao said:
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced to realize what kind of a problem it is if the Operating System you're running is no longer being developed?
Ever spoken to an OS/2 user lately or watch the calisthenics of an Amiga user when trying to perform such mundane tasks like trying to run a GigaByte database application on his systm?
Ever watched an Atari user trying to download a 300MB file from the Internet?
Seen a Palm User playing Adobe Flash videos lately?
I could go on like this, but it is naive at best to have the attitude "because I don't see my Operating system during daily use, I don't have to worry about getting support for it..."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First of all you get support and new updates from HTC. A new version of WM? OK, what for? You write about Atari, Palm, etc. but this just shows you don't know what you're talking about. What great feature do you see for phones coming before WM7 is released (this year)? Because right now with the 6.5 you can do EVERYTHING the competition offers and even more (compare the HD2 to the iPhone for instance). Your arguments about Amiga and Atari are quite... let's say childish. The last popular Amiga was released more than 15 years ago so what do you want to prove with that. The problem here is not the software but the hardware. In 3 years the HD2 won't be probably even decent compared to newer devices and system updates won't help. Do you think that with a new Amiga OS (i.e. Workbench) you would now be able to open 1GB files on an Amiga 1200 with 2MB of RAM? Wish you luck .
In matter of OS I really don't see any update which would be a must before WM7 is released and as we all know WM7 will be probably available for the HD2 for free. So if you see some indispensable updates for WM6.5 be my guest - I really wonder what it could be. Besides it's really smart to rely on Wikipedia for official news... afaik WM is still in development and WM6.6 will be released soon - just as I wrote in the first post - quote: "WM will still be developed". The problem is that for no apparent reason you think WM won't be developed anymore and that's a quite naive statement.

johncmolyneux said:
That's particularly offensive and you should apologise to gregormax immediately for that!
The "article" you linked suggest that it may be possible that windows mobile will no longer be developed. It's an analyst suggesting a possibility - it is not fact, or even likely.
You should read the whole thing again, but don't take it as gospel just because an analyst was "quoted" on a wiki page.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Why is it offensive if I ask someone who in essence says "If I don't see my OpSys then I don't have to worry about it not being supported any more" if he tries to be dense on purpose?
That is not offensive at all, and I will most certainly not apologize for making a valid point here.
Quite to the contrary I think that gregormax should think about how qualified his remarks were, which most certainly did not address the issue of my posting at all - but just tried to belittle it all.
And I did read the whole darn article, including the part where every(!) industry analyst agreed that 2010 is the out time for Windows Mobile and WinMo7 the last major release of it.
And I have seen this cycle happening before.
As soon as the OpSys manufacturer pulls the plug on their platform, all the major SW developers will stop developing for it - and in most cases will also stop supporting their apps.
Regardless of how much money users just paid for their software.
So I do think that this is a valid point of concern for anyone spending close to a thousand dollars on their HTC device.

Towserspvm2000 said:
Good analogies... My Amiga 500 Plus had a 170mb hardrive. Huge!!!!! I only filled 40mb of it! lol... And I could run a country off that! And that was only 18 years ago... LOL
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you realize that there are still Amiga computers sold even today?
They have two companies in Italy still marketing that platform.
Their designs look quite impressive, until you get to the actual technical details.
And then you realize how hopelessly outdated the whole darn thing is.
And "running a whole country of 170mb"?
I doubt that very much. Even back in the days, it took more than that just to manage a single city. That is what IBM mainframes were made for.

All is said but here my 5 cent.
A company like MS does have the claim to be present in all possible software markets regardless of the fact wheter with or without success. They will never drop it even if they lose money because to them its an image thingy....
I'm also pretty sure that Microsoft will bring at some point their own smartphone which is currently nothing else but a rumour but gonna come true once and that will be running on such an OS developed by MS as well.
Cheers
LEE

Towserspvm2000 said:
Microsoft have rested on their laurels for too long, and WM7 might be too far away to do any good. But don't worry, WM6.6 is just around the corner.... What is that gonna bring???
Android has come from nowhere, fueled by the Iphone?
WM is just cluncky right now, HTC can only cover over the little cracks of WM, but the big cracks still exist. One day soon, even HTC will say "Windows... ahhh Feck it!!!"
I've always poo-pooed Android because I would not want to leave the WM apps I have on my device. But those apps I have are apps that rectify WM shortcomings in the first place - shortcomings that don't appear on Android.
There are only two apps I can't live without and would keep me using WM a device, and they are My Sport Training and My Personal Diet. And in 2010 they are going to be ported over to Android. When I see them on Android, I will sit up....
I just think all the other operating systems are getting more polished, but WM is still a turd. And an old turd at that....
A final point that has just come to me.... People say that WM allows you to alter the settings and just tinker.... why? Because it is crap and you need to spend so much time getting it right? Because people here at forums like this can do better and produce software better than MS or HTC????
Am I ranting??? Am I coming to the end of WM?
Discuss...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I would have most certainly accused you of "ranting" myself, until I read what all those Industry Analysts and the major phone suppliers said about their (lacking) support for WinMo - that and the ever Shrinking Market Share of WM.
Now I feel I just wasted another thousand dollars (phone + SW licenses) on a freaking Dinosaur.
A device outdated by its Operating System before it even hit the shelves

lee1980 said:
All is said but here my 5 cent.
A company like MS does have the claim to be present in all possible software markets regardless of the fact wheter with or without success. They will never drop it even if they lose money because to them its an image thingy....
...
Cheers
LEE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They used to say the same About Apple and the Newton, until Apple dropped that platform over night.
Same with IBM and OS/2.
I just don't see how they can survive their ever shrinking market share and I never knew that 80% of all WinMo phones are made by one single company - HTC.

balane said:
What more do I want it to do? I can think of a lot I would like my handheld to do in the future. I want it to show actual video of the road I'm driving down with a big orange stripe telling me where to go. That's the navigation of the future. I want it to stream HD video flawlessly, from every possible source. I want it to play music and have a DAC and preamp as good as a high end car/home stereo. I want it to call the police when it gets stolen and tell them where it is. I want to be able to think of words and have them appear on the screen, same with opening applications. I want it to be incredibly easy to use and predict what I'm going to do before I do it. I want it to tell me that my favorite Cheesesteak restaurant is going out of business in a week so I better swing by for a last sandwich before it's too late. I want it to clock me in at work when I walk in the door and send a message to them when it determines I won't make it on time.
I don't hate WM and Sense 2.5 right now at all, my phone does more than anybody else's around me but there is no way I would be happy with it a decade from now. I bet if you look back at a phone you were totally happy with ten years ago that you wouldn't want it in your pocket today.
Microsoft hasn't lost yet but they need to get to work and they need to do it fast, that is if they want to compete. Maybe they don't care about mobile any more. That's OK too, other companies do and will care.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't care about Sandwiches or what happens a decade from now.
But that my old TomTom App & Maps no longer work on the HTC HD2 and that it is now highly unlikely that TomTom will ever offer support for that platform, yes that does concern me a lot.
The same goes for my multiple talking language dictionaries I own, as I do travel excessively.
If they are not ported over, I just wasted close to $200 for language packs I can't even use as weights (should have bought the paper version instead ;-(
There are many, many such applications that I used to run on my old gSmart phone, and was waiting to be ported to the WVGA HD2 platform.
But after reading that article I highly, highly doubt that many SW vendors will be in a hurry to invest development capacity for a dieing platform.

pharao said:
They used to say the same About Apple and the Newton, until Apple dropped that platform over night.
Same with IBM and OS/2.
I just don't see how they can survive their ever shrinking market share and I never knew that 80% of all WinMo phones are made by one single company - HTC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well but those examples are a bit different. OS/2 was dropped because microsoft finished the coop. with IBM (simply a strategic decision for focusing on windows) and the newton because of the not given market acceptance. None of the because of the big competition on the market like now....
Maybe they should corner the HTC ;-)

You are so wrong my friend. I have an ex colleague that works for Route 66. They received all the Android prototypes and WM phones to get software developed on them. Android will get navigation software and my guess is that the HD2 will also get navigation software for the new wm7. He can't tell me more, because of the confidentiality.
I really think you are exaggerating and the lack of inside info, or any kind of confirmation, strong rumor, or whatever is making you think this way.
Just give it a couple of months until we see wm7 and we get an official confirmation for the hd2.

pharao said:
Why is it offensive if I ask someone who in essence says "If I don't see my OpSys then I don't have to worry about it not being supported any more" if he tries to be dense on purpose?
That is not offensive at all, and I will most certainly not apologize for making a valid point here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I told you to apologise because this is supposed to be a mature and helpful forum, and not filled with people who immediately start name-calling as soon as there is a person who disagrees with their point of view. People who resort to that are singularly responsible for the only bad aspect of this whole forum.
R u trying to be extra dense on purpose or are you just to inexperienced
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You WERE offensive and you SHOULD apologise. If you had any level of maturity you would at least accept that name-calling is pretty pathetic and pointless.

lorin.bute said:
You are so wrong my friend. I have an ex colleague that works for Route 66. They received all the Android prototypes and WM phones to get software developed on them. Android will get navigation software and my guess is that the HD2 will also get navigation software for the new wm7. He can't tell me more, because of the confidentiality.
I really think you are exaggerating and the lack of inside info, or any kind of confirmation, strong rumor, or whatever is making you think this way.
Just give it a couple of months until we see wm7 and we get an official confirmation for the hd2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When I spoke with TomTom about support for the HD2 they told me flat out "no support and none planned".
And I need turn by turn mapping software that includes places like Eastern Europe, Africa and South America.
Not just maps for downtown London or Los Angeles.
And there are not so many GPS capable map application providers out there who "cover the whole globe".
The WinMo support by companies like TomTom was the reason why I bought my first WinMo phone to begin with, as I had originally set my mind on a Linux phone.
If HTC can not secure that kind of support for the HD2, then I made a serious misjudgment in spending that much money for this device :-(

Is STEVE BALLMER literally RETARDED? MS to charge carriers for WM7. Yet Android=Free?

Sometimes 2 pictures can tell a story better than 1000 words. What is wrong with one of these 2 pictures?
DEATH WISH / Link
vs.
ON-A-ROLL / Link
Is the MS strategy so secret and mind boggling that I am simply not smart enough to comprehend its brilliance? Or is there a wattage problem in MS's Board Room?
.
.

I can live with it adding $20 to the cost of a device. There are also things like TCO or similar that apply to a manufacturer and in turn to a customer.

The answer is yes. He is most definitely retarded.
Fact is that wimo could NEVER have been considered successful. Mostly because it is a piece of trash. Charging more [than nothing] for it is suicide -- especially when you compare it to the in-every-conceivable-way superior ANDROID, which is free.
I actually quite like their strategy of shooting themselves in the head. It means that they will die off faster.

Alright, let's do a recap:
-Android is 100% free, WinMo is not
-They are about to charge CARRIERS, so say goodbye to unlocked phones
-It's Windows Mobile, so say goodbye to Google services. If you like Bing, Windows Live and the rest, good for you, but most of us don't.
He is to Microsoft what Bush was to the US. He is arrogant, generally misoriented and strengthen the opinion the public has about Microsoft.

N1c0_ds said:
Alright, let's do a recap:He is to Microsoft what Bush was to the US. He is arrogant, generally misoriented and strengthen the opinion the public has about Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, this is quite apt, and yet I have never made the connection before. Now that you've made it for me, there are thousands of 1:1 analogies that flow like a rain-flooded river out of my head.
His "Mission Accomplished" was his laughing off the iphone. That was the beginning of the end of staying relevant. Now, 3-4 years later, he's introducing his own iphone, but with one very clever and extremely significant difference:
He's calling his Windows Phone.

Ballmer has been blowing it for years! That's why XDA thrives fixing his OS and why Adroid is on the fast track.

I had 3 WinMo phones before my Hero and I thought it was amazing, I was really reluctant to switch to Android, and after using Android for 1 day I'm pretty sure I'll never use WinMo again. If someone paid me $100 to use WinMo instead of Android, I wouldn't; so asking people to pay THEM to use WinMo is just stupid.

It really starts to come down to the essence of this site
rpimps said:
I had 3 WinMo phones before my Hero and I thought it was amazing, I was really reluctant to switch to Android, and after using Android for 1 day I'm pretty sure I'll never use WinMo again. If someone paid me $100 to use WinMo instead of Android, I wouldn't; so asking people to pay THEM to use WinMo is just stupid.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my exact experience. It isn't a punitive view. It has nothing to do with loyalty/disloyalty, or "they're late to delivering their new OS, so I will punish them by not using it". This has everything to do with how good the combination of HTC + Android is. There is not one thing I long for, there is nothing at all that I am missing using my HTC Hero running Android. HTC's SenseUI on top of Android (which i had never run before, nor even tried before, deciding I wanted to buy the Hero) works so beautifully right out of the box, and the Android market is filled with apps & utilities that make the device's functionality even greater.
I spent over 3 years here, a whole year before even registering, just to help make my T-Mobile MDA device useful to me.
I am saying this: Before my first touchscreen device, I had a very reliable Samsung clamshell device... Being very careful, while in the car I could hit a speed dial and get someone on the phone, activate speakerphone etc., and when the call was done, bullet-proof step to end the cal;. I could feel it in my fingers.
Entering the world of touchscreens, of which I am such a huge champion I have created an awards series in support of, I quickly discovered, to my immediate dismay, "I can't even make a phone call without having this screen up to my face"... But worse, put it in my pocket and for a year my friends are all angry "why do you keep calling me?". Try to get the phone OUT of my pocket to answer a call before it goes to voicemail, 9 times out of ten a touchscreen area gets pushed and call is lost.
Then the tiny tiny keyboard you use reading glasses to see so you can poke that stylus precisely... I was wondering, "what have I traded away for a screen that can browse the web?"
Again, 4 years ago, thankfully one T-mobile store salesperson in San Francisco told me about this site, kind of in hushed tones while inside the store as employee. When I first came here, like with many folks, it was an intimidating jungle, with caution signs everywhere: "READ THIS FIRST" "DON'T POST WITHOUT SEARCHING". I would finally come to what I thought would be straight-forward set of instructions: "A Newbie's Guide to Upgrading your T-Mobile MDA", only to encounter in the very first sentence "Make sure your phone ist HARD-SPL'd or you'll brick it"... "HARD SPL? What does THAT mean?" It took me well over 6 months, back then, to stop-and-go, stop-and-go-back, just then searching for "what is HARD SPL?" only to come to yet another thread saying stuff like "To make sure your device is capable of HARD SPL, it must be all ROMS after 63i850db247, not before or you'll brick your phone"... Read 100's of pages of thread and not one post saying "Yes, your MDA is fine for Hard-SPL". On and on it went til finally, after being slapped down a few times for asking questions (they would link me back to the very threads I already had plowed through), I got some help to get me started.
And THAT day began the pursuit toward USEFULNESS OF USING MY PHONE.
Admit it, more than 3/4 of this site has always been about compensating for what may have been a very fine underlying OS, but a terrible, terrible unfriendly user experience. I upgraded to the T-Mobile Wing before the iPhone came out and was finally at the spot where XDA-devs had created 1000 workarounds for those tiny menus you have to hold up to your face to see... They stripped out the inefficiencies of various WM software, and suddenly I could multi-task keeping Google Maps aways open, with contacts open, notes, music player, ans various utilities. Finally, for me, after 3 years I had a USEABLE PHONE that matched the promise of the ads and marketing.
In almost all cases, XDA-devs were generally NOT exploiting some fabulously smart feature of WindowsMobile, and making it better. They were taking poorly-thought out functionality and terrible UI, and adapting it to become useful. And when the iphone hit, then the paradigm of finger-based navigation changed everything, and XDA-devs created UIs that replicated the easier to "hit" target zones of the iphone interface. Lots of 3rd party shells, etc... But almost ALL of this was to correct deficiencies due to handicaps of what was core Windows Mobile. Still, to this day, people like Supbro, developer of iDialer, and his branch of iContact, have been correcting the stupidity of tiny text for adding a new contact.
I'm just saying: Here I am 4 years later, having had amazing functionality delivered to me thanks to great chefs here, great app & utility developers, and, let's all face it, GREAT ROMS from HTC which were broken apart to extract and enable yet MORE compensating UI fixes (like TouchFlo), all to FIX and mask over the terrible user experience of Windows Mobile.
THUS, when I got my Hero, and began to use it, and from DAY 1, it just works, and it's easy and intuitive, and with all these great widgets and real-time display updates, I realized even more: JEEZ! Finally an OS that is smarter out the gate. Yet Windows STILL had a year to come in and show the marketplace it had learned a thing or two, after the G1 introduced the world to Android. And all they could burp out, with all their resources and skilled engineers, was windows 6.5? And they had to even quickly abandon their explicit HONEYCOMB Ui after it was immediately, and rightfully ridiculed as
"THIS is your new thinking, Microsoft? Your honeycomb staggered alignment, and your start button at bottom center. THIS IS IT??"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So Ballmer 6-9 months ago "gets religion" and admits (in that infamous private meeting widely reported throughout cellphone land) his whole company should have focused on WM7, and not gone down the 6.5 path, because they were already so behind their new-found competitors... And there was a HOPE, a spark, an ember left, that said, OKAY, MS has HUGE resources and money... so if they tackle this well, they could well turn everything around. But that delivery date for WM 7 was FEBRUARY 2010. Meanwhile many companies moved forward: Google, Motorola, HTC and we saw October, November, December just POUND the marketplace with success after success of Android products, coupled with HTC and Motorola keeping the competitive spirit alive which drives innovation.
JANUARY 2010, and Google comes out with NEXUS ONE --- full of problems, including Google's total fumble with the whole concept of "dealing with customers"... and HTC has had their Snapdragon-processor phone lines well in development as well... And now they've got phones in the marketplace right now much better than the Nexus One, with a new optical trackball, and other usability advances.
And so here we are in February 2010, the very time at which WM 7 was set to be IN THE MARKETPLACE wowing us with what we all hoped would be something re-invented, reviving their tattered brand. And now it's September 2010? Who here believes they'll make THAT date? But great, a little tease at a Mobile World Congress revives some hope that it will all be worth it.
That's 7 months from now! We will surely see in that time a whole new iteration of iPhone OS software. And who knows what from Android?
So I come not to bash Ballmer, but to question his brain-function. With all these deficits working against MS's comeback, he has the audacity to play chess with the marketplace and proclaim there will be add-on carrier fees for his company's new WM7 OS phones? I really meant it literally. Does this man have a screw loose?
Sorry for the BOOK length post, but for anyone reading it, tell me where I'm wrong?
XDA-devs SAVED THEIR ASSES for the past 3 years -- by enabling their crippled OS to do tricks that satisfied customer demand. And now that I bought the Hero -- because I liked what I saw -- and have used it for 4 months, I just don't see the point in wondering "what will WM 7 really be like?" -- because once I made that leap, I'm no longer dealing with 3/4 of the efforts of this great site devoted to COMPENSATION for what WM lacked. Maybe there are people with great sentimental ties to WM -- because naturally after working one's asses off to build off of it, and create great useful software products, features and utilities, there would be a lot of cognitive dissonance at play when contemplating where to continue your development efforts going forward.
And there IS sentimentalism that drives quite a bit of WM enthusiasm. ANd that's fine. But here I am 4 months into using my HERO, and I have yet to even feel the need to come here and root my phone and make it EVEN BETTER. I will, for sure... But I haven't needed to. It's all frosting or gravy for something that inherently works AS SHIPPED.
So that's my rationale. rpimps' prior post just flushed this essay out of me... yet what he's said in 2 sentences summarizes everything I just typed.
Choice is good. And for everyone who wants to stick with WM, I am sure there will be plenty of fruits to bare. But meanwhile I *use* my phone and depend on it right now, not 7 months from now. I'm not looking back.

galaxys said:
That's why XDA thrives fixing his OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And that really is the summary statement about the genesis of and incredible growth of this great site.

If they want to sell WM they need to make it exactly the same as Android, and make a long press on the Home button bring up the usual WM task list to switch between running apps. I'd buy that.

I'm starting to get pretty sick of all this love for Android and how anything Android will blow WP7 out of the water. All this love for a dumbed-down smartphone. None of us have seen WP7, except for a few screenshots here and there and in my opinion it looks great. MS had to make some changes if they wanted to stay relevant, because what we forget is that the "power-users" make up a very small percentage of the buyers market. However, I really do hope that MS does not forget about us all together. All I know is that come December, I'll be rocking the new WP7 and not an Android. Theres my 2 cents.

Irishpride said:
I'm starting to get pretty sick of all this love for Android and how anything Android will blow WP7 out of the water. All this love for a dumbed-down smartphone. None of us have seen WP7, except for a few screenshots here and there and in my opinion it looks great. MS had to make some changes if they wanted to stay relevant, because what we forget is that the "power-users" make up a very small percentage of the buyers market. However, I really do hope that MS does not forget about us all together. All I know is that come December, I'll be rocking the new WP7 and not an Android. Theres my 2 cents.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is an actual question, not an argument - what are some things WM can do that Android can't? I use my phone for business functionality and I don't consider myself a member of the "general public" and switching to Android after 3 WM phones, I haven't found a single thing (aside from maybe quicker switching between running apps) WM did that Android doesn't.

Steve Balmber retarded?
Hmmmmmm
Limited vocabulary
Edit: WTF!?

He's bat**** effing insane! Thanks for sharing

You guys are jumping the gun on this. At least wait and see how things go before you saying game over for WM and jump ship.
Do you guys ***** that the desktop or laptop or netbook you just purchased cost you $25-50 more because it is running Windows7 compared to Ubuntu or another Linux build? No way!
So why are you going to moan about a measily ~$10 fee on your phone for running WM7. Heck you can probably run a dual boot setup on your WM7 phone to run both Windows and Android to experience the best of both worlds...just like some of us have done with our computers.

Lots of things u can't do with HTC HD7

- How do i bluetooth pictures from HD7 to other devices???? Having Bluetooth but can only bletooth headset or earpiece. But most important cannot bluetooth files or picture to other devices is a big disappointment. example took a picture with the HD7 cam n cannot bluetooth to ur friend or to a printing machine at the Kodac shop.....etc.
- No option to keep the phone screen on when charging, especially in car charging.
- Screen time out option only has 4 option (need to have option for no screen time out also)
- no option for using other ringtones only can use those in built in the phone
- no file explorer ( Very important cos need to find those files which are store in the phone)
I guess there are more to mention, u guys can post more abt this issue here if u like, abit regarding buying this phone still prefer my old HTC HD2 which can do wonders.
Let's hope HTC or Microsoft can do something abt this issues.....

Did you forget
Why is everyone bashing the WP7 os.
It wasn't so long ago that Android 1.6 and Iphone Firmware Version 1.1.3 had there fair share of issues and missing features.
Given enough time I hope Microsoft will address most of the things that needed to improve the WP7 experience but in the mean time if it's that serious go buy something else and stop complaining

If you’re looking for a feature replacement to an Android phone or Windows Mobile device, WP7 will disappoint. - Anandtech WP7 Review. After using iPhone, 6.5, Android and now WP7, I couldn't agree more.
heres the link: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3982/windows-phone-7-review

There is so much flaming when it comes to WP7. I too don't get. There's a lot lacking WP7. And only by people 'complaining' will the manufacturer realize that certain changes need to be made.
I've been using MS phones since the Pocket Pc 2000 in 2000. WP7 is definitely a half baked OS.
Will i downgrade back to my HD2; of course not but complain I will.
The OP was simply listing flaws that are apparent. I admit that there are one too many threads where he could have just amended his post but "f1restarter " was out of line with his response. However his second response should have been the first.
You can critic as a grown up or as a child. I take it we are all adults here!

After a two days I am appreciating the shift with wp7. Sure there are things I would like back:
Copy/Paste
File system access
Ringtone
Mass storage
Messenger
Etc
Having said that, there are things I am really digging on:
XBox Live Integration
Wireless sync from Zune client
Hubs are a great place for growth
Voice recognition is great
Office 2010 is going to get better as Skydrive apps are created
Etc
On one hand there were some strikes and fouls but on the other hand were some balls that were hit out of the park!
Imagine a year from now

alabij said:
There is so much flaming when it comes to WP7. I too don't get. There's a lot lacking WP7. And only by people 'complaining' will the manufacturer realize that certain changes need to be made.
I've been using MS phones since the Pocket Pc 2000 in 2000. WP7 is definitely a half baked OS.
Will i downgrade back to my HD2; of course not but complain I will.
The OP was simply listing flaws that are apparent. I admit that there are one too many threads where he could have just amended his post but "f1restarter " was out of line with his response. However his second response should have been the first.
You can critic as a grown up or as a child. I take it we are all adults here!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
maybe because every other thread is a wp7 bashing thread, and its getting a little old. You can search even the first page of the wp7 thread and the op could have posted in one of those.
Nothing he posted is groundbreaking. No file explorer, duh. Because of this you can't BT files, really???
We know this already. If MS would have implented these features before the code was ready, there would be 20 threads complaining about how buggy wp7 is.
This is a 1.0 release of a brand new OS. We all new this when we bought it. If you didn't know it, then you deserve to be frustrated because these things have been known for months now. It's not going to match the functionality of OS's that have been out for a few years now.
Microsoft knows that we want more features, they are planning a big update in january to address some of them.
And I disagree that complaining on here will get microsoft to add features. You need to take those complaints over to the wp7 support forum.

no doubt abt it i selling my HD7 away getting back a HD2. Hope WP7 will improve alot more the next time i decide to get 1 back.

Incorrect thread title. Nothing to do with HD7, this is about WP7. If you're going to post another "I don't like it" thread at least post it in the correct section.

i would like VPN

This is turning into another thread on what WP7 cannot do, could a mod move it to the WP7 section and preferably merge it into one of the similar threads there before it gets out of hand?

Thread cleaned and closed,all the issue posted by op are WP7 problems not only HD7 .

WP7 NoDo update (estimated) schedule posted by Microsoft

Guyz... Just came across this blog where MS is giving some estimated time frame that you can expect the NoDo or Copy/Paste update to your specific device.
This link is specific to the US devices: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/features/update-schedule-usa.aspx
HD7 Device shows up as "Scheduling". They also claim the status would be updated weekly. So go check it out.
This is the link to the Blog: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_.../2011/03/23/copy-and-paste-update-status.aspx

I've been holding it in and am a huge supporter. This isn't going to be constructive at all but, **** MSFT AND THE CARRIERS!! It's MSFT fault either way. If the carriers are delaying release of the updates, then they should have enough nuts to say something and get it done. Hell, show them the predicted results of what happens to your market share when they piddle around and piss off customers. I've been one since I bought my Motorola MPX 220 and Ipaq Pocket PC. I've done nothing but brag about WM since it's inception. Posted facts about WM on my Facebook page to shut up people about Apple and them being the first smartphone. And now I'm just plain fed the **** UP!! Sorry to rant, but I could actually keep going. NO custom ringtones, NO Mass Storage, NO multitasking for an alarm clock that doesn't suck, NO threaded email or single email inbox, NO....you fill in the blank now. And I was excusing all these things due to my faith that MSFT will get with the program pretty quickly. Looks like it's time to fix my HD2's screen or buy a freaking Android phone until MSFT catches up in 2015!

I agree. I am so pissed at the way MS is trying to push this update. If MS can define hardware limitations, they could very well define the update rules to the carriers. I think MS should grow a pair and tell the manufacturers/carriers to push the update all at once its ready.
This is so frustrating. No doubt Apple is the master of delivering the updates. In fact, Apple does not even have to announce a software update, every one knows they can expect one every year in March/April.
I thought MS would have learnt something good when they launched WP7.
"Push updates in Batches" my Ass.

It's MSFT fault either way
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You sure about that or are you just itching to point an unnecessary finger at MS??
Hell, show them the predicted results of what happens to your market share when they piddle around and piss off customers. I've been one since I bought my Motorola MPX 220 and Ipaq Pocket PC. I've done nothing but brag about WM since it's inception.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
wow... all that and THIS is what gets to you. You waded through all the other stuff, You go back to about 2003 with MS you finally get a FAR SUPERIOR device and this minor wait is doing it??
Come the hell on.
NO custom ringtones, NO Mass Storage, NO multitasking for an alarm clock that doesn't suck, NO threaded email or single email inbox, NO....you fill in the blank now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think the rest of us are going to need a life raft just to avoid drowning in your silly-ass tears.
Ya know, I think it's big of MS ot post the fact that the carriers are the ones holding **** up. Who else does that?
If MS can define hardware limitations, they could very well define the update rules to the carriers. I think MS should grow a pair and tell the manufacturers/carriers to push the update all at once its ready.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hold on there pard'ner. You are talking about two VERY different entities. MS, and manufcturers are ALL at the mercy of carriers.
No doubt Apple is the master of delivering the updates. In fact, Apple does not even have to announce a software update, every one knows they can expect one every year in March/April.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So... one update a year, then a new phone later that year (or so) and they are "masters" at this?? The ****... seriously?!?
I have a solution for everyone one Apple or Android. But don't forget your hankys 'cuz you will have PLENTY to ***** about there too.
Kthxbye!

Hi Everyone,
Not sure if this has already been posted but here is a schedule for people OUTSIDE the U.S. as well...
http://www.mobiletechworld.com/2011...pdate-status-carriers-countries-and-devices/#
Not 100% sure on the acuracy of it but I hope it helps...

Sean D. said:
You sure about that or are you just itching to point an unnecessary finger at MS??
wow... all that and THIS is what gets to you. You waded through all the other stuff, You go back to about 2003 with MS you finally get a FAR SUPERIOR device and this minor wait is doing it??
Come the hell on.
I think the rest of us are going to need a life raft just to avoid drowning in your silly-ass tears.
Ya know, I think it's big of MS ot post the fact that the carriers are the ones holding **** up. Who else does that?
Hold on there pard'ner. You are talking about two VERY different entities. MS, and manufcturers are ALL at the mercy of carriers.
So... one update a year, then a new phone later that year (or so) and they are "masters" at this?? The ****... seriously?!?
I have a solution for everyone one Apple or Android. But don't forget your hankys 'cuz you will have PLENTY to ***** about there too.
Kthxbye!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have HD2 running android and have less to complain about then with WP7.
I also have HD7 with half an OS on it. It reminds me it is half an OS as each time I want to do something there is no option for it or it says no.
WP7 has potential but the way it is going that's where it is going to stay till XDA developers hack it.
Name smartphone was invented for a reason, it was to be used with phones that were "smarter" then average mobile. Had plenty of functions where everyone could find what they need. Current range of WP7 phones, Apple phones are a retarded version of smartphone but that only makes it an average phone, just huge!!!

Sean D. said:
So... one update a year, then a new phone later that year (or so) and they are "masters" at this?? The ****... seriously?!?
I have a solution for everyone one Apple or Android. But don't forget your hankys 'cuz you will have PLENTY to ***** about there too.
Kthxbye!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You still haven't made your point.
An update every year to all its zillion+ customer base at once with our any issues irrespective of the carrier, across countries and continents. If they are not masters of this, you let me know the word I can use or you think appropriate.
A tiny-ass copy/paste update (which I'm not even crazy about) is taking them forever to deliver to it's customers. The reason I'm more interested in the update is for the Bluetooth fix and the email pictures fix, which when sent form an iPhone is not received.
An Apple or Android for every one of us? I cannot talk for others, but I've been there done that. Not apple of course (except for the 1st gen phone which I was using it on T-Mobile after unlocking it myself). I currently own a N1, HD2, HD7 (my primary device) and Galaxy S (my wife).
I'm not really sure about your devices experience, but you have lot a lot to say with out any point.

ruscik said:
I have HD2 running android and have less to complain about then with WP7.
I also have HD7 with half an OS on it. It reminds me it is half an OS as each time I want to do something there is no option for it or it says no.
WP7 has potential but the way it is going that's where it is going to stay till XDA developers hack it.
Name smartphone was invented for a reason, it was to be used with phones that were "smarter" then average mobile. Had plenty of functions where everyone could find what they need. Current range of WP7 phones, Apple phones are a retarded version of smartphone but that only makes it an average phone, just huge!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One question - How many times in a week do your reboot your phone or flash a ROM. I'm not asking if you are flashing ROM because there is a new one out there, I'm asking about the times you flash because of the hope the next one would be more usable and stable.
I was done looking for a perfect ROM and fed-up with ROMs that require a reboot every 12 or 24 hrs for them to work with out hanging up. I found the level of stability, usability, functionality and ease with WP7 OS. Thats why I switched. Of course the Apps and Games are a HUGE bonus for me.

VizagDude said:
I agree. I am so pissed at the way MS is trying to push this update. If MS can define hardware limitations, they could very well define the update rules to the carriers. I think MS should grow a pair and tell the manufacturers/carriers to push the update all at once its ready.
This is so frustrating. No doubt Apple is the master of delivering the updates. In fact, Apple does not even have to announce a software update, every one knows they can expect one every year in March/April.
I thought MS would have learnt something good when they launched WP7.
"Push updates in Batches" my Ass.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you actually stopped to think about what you just said, apple can do that because first of all they make their OWN devices (which are extremely overpriced/battery cant be replaced easily if at all) so yeah they can just send out an update, it doesnt have to be test on all of these different manufactured devices. So.........Apple still sucks..........WINDOWS PHONE ALL THE WAY!!!
You guys have to give microsoft a break. It is illogical and unfair to compare a first year company in the new smartphone age to others (apple and android) which have been around for years. Apple and android had really shaky starts too, maybe even worse. Its just an update guys, give microsoft a break on their new and amazing product! NICE JOB MS, keep the magic coming.
=================
Dell Venue Pro 16gb----TMobile(soon to be At&t :/ )

I agree here 100%. I came from WM 6.1 Pro to Android and dont get me wrong... I love my Droid but man did I do alot of *****ing waiting for my FroYo update and for what really? Flash was the biggest upgrade from Eclair and Apps2SD... REALLY??? Apps2SD??? My Omnia i910 could do that right out of the box but I had to wait for an update to do it on my Galaxy S I thought to myself...
This is a similar scenario here and guess what??? *****ing or NO *****ing we still have to wait NO MATTER WHAT!!!
I think MS has done a fantastic job on this OS and although it is lacking some pretty basic functionality as of now, IT WILL COME just like having to wait for Apps2 SD on Android which to me coming from WM 6.1 Pro I thought was pretty basic.
Hold your horses people and let MS do its thing and when this OS begins to mature a bit I have no doubt that it will be an absolute BEAST!!!
gmark7 said:
If you actually stopped to think about what you just said, apple can do that because first of all they make their OWN devices (which are extremely overpriced/battery cant be replaced easily if at all) so yeah they can just send out an update, it doesnt have to be test on all of these different manufactured devices. So.........Apple still sucks..........WINDOWS PHONE ALL THE WAY!!!
You guys have to give microsoft a break. It is illogical and unfair to compare a first year company in the new smartphone age to others (apple and android) which have been around for years. Apple and android had really shaky starts too, maybe even worse. Its just an update guys, give microsoft a break on their new and amazing product! NICE JOB MS, keep the magic coming.
=================
Dell Venue Pro 16gb----TMobile(soon to be At&t :/ )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

If not for the *****ing, we wouldn't even have the schedule they posted in their Blog. If they had took care of informing their customers in a timely manner and with accurate info, no one would've been *****ing. Instead, they were promoting their coming updates and fixes giving vague timings and everyone are frustrated not knowing what and when to expect.
The reason I got this device is because I love the OS. But that does not get away from the fact that they screwed up the update process.

the question now is, how often will ms be updating the website. we need to know cause the updates in the website (for hd7's) says that they are to be scheduled and it says it will take 10 days or less. when will the counting of days start? from the time the website was opened? if this is the case were now down to 7 days of wait time. i think ms needs to start re-labeling the updates. NoDo should be april update not march update

Sean D. said:
You sure about that or are you just itching to point an unnecessary finger at MS??
wow... all that and THIS is what gets to you. You waded through all the other stuff, You go back to about 2003 with MS you finally get a FAR SUPERIOR device and this minor wait is doing it??
Come the hell on.
I think the rest of us are going to need a life raft just to avoid drowning in your silly-ass tears.
Ya know, I think it's big of MS ot post the fact that the carriers are the ones holding **** up. Who else does that?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The finger pointing isn't unnecessary. Either they care about making customer's happy (who buy the product) or they can be more concerned about the carriers (which in my case Tmobile) haven't shown that much support for the OS in the first place. And you're right, I waded through all the other stuff because winmo really wasn't that bad if you understood what you were getting. For 2003, viewing movies, listening to mp3's and using Office features on a phone were so cutting edge, that you were willing to deal with the occasional bug, lock up or sometimes slowness of the OS. The only thing they did with WP7 was fix the ugliness,smoothness, and overall stability of the OS. Which is exactly what needed to happen. I applaud them for the fresh start. But, seriously, we're in 2011 now (8 yrs later) and you can't regress so far backwards, and then waste loads of time to re-implement things your previous (and every other OS) does now. I mean, what second or newer iteration of a product have you seen that loses a lot of it's most valuable marketing aspects? And as for my tear being silly. Your disillusioned in your thoughts that you don't need such things as I mentioned. If there was no need for them, then mobile OS's wouldn't have them and no one would care.

kwill said:
The finger pointing isn't unnecessary. Either they care about making customer's happy (who buy the product) or they can be more concerned about the carriers (which in my case Tmobile) haven't shown that much support for the OS in the first place. And you're right, I waded through all the other stuff because winmo really wasn't that bad if you understood what you were getting. For 2003, viewing movies, listening to mp3's and using Office features on a phone were so cutting edge, that you were willing to deal with the occasional bug, lock up or sometimes slowness of the OS. The only thing they did with WP7 was fix the ugliness,smoothness, and overall stability of the OS. Which is exactly what needed to happen. I applaud them for the fresh start. But, seriously, we're in 2011 now (8 yrs later) and you can't regress so far backwards, and then waste loads of time to re-implement things your previous (and every other OS) does now. I mean, what second or newer iteration of a product have you seen that loses a lot of it's most valuable marketing aspects? And as for my tear being silly. Your disillusioned in your thoughts that you don't need such things as I mentioned. If there was no need for them, then mobile OS's wouldn't have them and no one would care.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What do you mean...? They are doing something they NEVER did. They are not only supporting this OS, but addressing it in ways they never have before. I do agree that some things should not have been left out to begin with, IMO it is unacceptable to leave out something as minor as C&P. But they aren't the only ones who did this, and whoever compared them to apple is missing that this minor update is being given away they aren't forcing you to by another device to get it. You said it yourself, MS is not new to this game... hell in most ways they started the smartphone game the way it exists today.
So take a look at the ways Android (one of the OS's everyone claims is doing it right) went about rolling out Froyo. Or look at the fact that Apple is and has been pushing shiney, brand new feature to the masses that were available on my Kaiser in 2007 (front facing camera) or how they are masters at turd polishing.
With that in mind how are they really messing up?
You are seeing MS do things with it that we saw no signs of in 2003 but you feel they are making that big of a mistake?? I urge you to look past the minor crap and look at the overall picture.
There is no way you can logically look at this OS as a whole and see any real regressions. "Imperfections", hell yes. But regressions?? No way. The worst part about this update is that it has been beat to **** so bad that it can only catch negativity at this point. It has been splashed from site to site, and talked about at length... the expectations and anticipations are so high that people can only be let down. Back the hell away from the keyboard and chill out about something so small people.
Please read these links.
http://wmpoweruser.com/editorial-the-continuing-diminishing-return-from-updates/
http://wpcentral.com/fanboy-s-defense-microsoft

Sean D. said:
What do you mean...? They are doing something they NEVER did. They are not only supporting this OS, but addressing it in ways they never have before. ... and whoever compared them to apple is missing that this minor update is being given away they aren't forcing you to by another device to get it. ... There is no way you can logically look at this OS as a whole and see any real regressions. "Imperfections", hell yes. But regressions?? No way. The worst part about this update is that it has been beat to **** so bad that it can only catch negativity at this point. It has been splashed from site to site, and talked about at length... the expectations and anticipations are so high that people can only be let down. Back the hell away from the keyboard and chill out about something so small people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They did support windows mobile, there was plenty of new builds just when WP7 project started it wend down. Yes they address update process in a new way but it is a flaud way. What testing carriers need to do? I mean FFS they put their own picture and search engine in, that is it.
I agree MS is more concerned about keeping o2, Tmobile or other carrier happy and as per normal do not care about ned user. We paid for this device and we should get an update ASAP bypassing carriers. Apple 3gs runs software of apple 4 and I think apple 3g also so no they do not force you to buy new device.
Also as said before all apple users get update from apple on apple rules and apple does not care about carriers.
You say you can not look at this OS as regression, you say update is doomed to fail due to high expectations that will never be fulfilled. Did you stop to think where are those expectations coming from. It is only normal to compare new OS to old one to see the upgrades, advantages. With WP7 there is only one smooth interface. People expect the same fitures that were in windows mobile, that all other OS makers copied. C&P, internet sharing, portable storage mode are just few big ones that MS ignored?! Why?! Why there is still no GPS software, it seems no big makers want to make one, that can only be Microsoft fault and do not tell me they care about customers because then they would be insisting for TomTom or copilot do one to complete their platform.

The only things I have read about other Nav software has been sketchy. And one of the reasons (real or not) is because they don't want to compete with whatever Bing updates are coming (whenever that is).
Not sure if its legit or not, but I saw it somewhere.
I will say that seeing Bing be so far superior on the other platforms is horse ****. If they want to do any one thing to make me more satisfied that would be it. Beyond that, as important as the update is I'm not going to cry about it taking this long.
Especially if it has to do with the carriers.

Bing navigation is **** that is it. It might work for US where significant number of people never leave US. However here in Europe, rest of the world as well people take their cars/bikes abroad and want to use GPS. Data roaming costs more then brick of gold so sorry that makes any online navigation ****.
I will not even mention fact that if you have basic gprs connection (the slowest) navigation will not work for sudden change of roads.

I have the dell venue pro TMo US. Just received my pre-nodo and nodo update today. I love you microsoft. Hope this fixes the wifi issue. No problems so far.

I've updated my HD7 to NoDo via the process of disconnecting data while Zune is checking for the update. Worked like a charm. I did this yesterday, couldn't rely on MS anymore to add my device to their batch process. The update is out there approved by most of the carriers. MS is the one that's limiting the update through whatever criteria within the Zune.
Sent from my HD7 using XDA Windows Phone 7 App

Maybe it's time for you to adandon MS all together. Chances are you'll be *****ing about them from here on out so why put yourself through it?
Maybe I'm mising something but I figure by now if it was ALL MS's fault more carriers would have pointed fingers back at them just to save face f nothing else, right?