First I'd like to start off by saying this is in no way meant to start trouble with Motorola by any means, you guys are an amazing company that make some amazing products. However, as a fan of Motorola and a consumer here are my views and what I assume are the views of many other users. Both people who like root and prefer stock.
I'd like to start by thanking aggiechase37 who's post about Motorola opening up and supporting non-oem ROMs gave me the final push to make and post this thread. If you have not seen it please give it a quick read HERE, and second thanks to everyone who takes the time to read this, if you can please respond with your thoughts on how I feel, and if you agree please post to show your support, hopefully if the support network is large enough Motorola will see the importance and a real benefit to following through with some of what will be said. So tweet this link, give everyone a link to it, and have everyone you know register here at the Motorola support forums, so that they to can show Motorola how big of a community we are, and what we can do with them!
Now to get into the long part... enjoy!
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Thanks Motorola for the Droid 3, it was a great choice to continue the Droid series on your part, I loved my Droid 1, and still use it everyday, and I must say with all the neat features and upgrades you packed in really make it a true phone to marvel at. However, it does have it's shortcomings I'm sure you know more than all of us of all the little quirks in it, and I'm sure your working on some fixes for everyone so we can all really enjoy what this device has to offer.
So to start out, I have a few main points:
Customer Support
Developer side/Developer community side
Opening up a little
OEM supported ROMs
Lets start with Customer Support you guys have a great service record from me, I have never had any problems with contacting you about issues or anything, all of my experiences with you have been more than great, and for that I'd say you are doing a great job. However there are some people who don't get those same experiences, you guys have a wonderful network but there is always room for improvement, just keep that in mind for the future, the best survive and the average fail, so please be the best, because I'd rather have you not fail... The remain aspects of customer support are apart of the Developer Side and the Opening up a little sections below.
Next, the Developer side/Developer community side of things along with the Opening up a little. I understand the reason for you and others to not want the Developer community and to keep your phones and devices purely how you make them and nothing more, but this is old news, no one today wants this. Look at Apple, they are making suits out of their @$$. It's rather annoying to everyone, they are locked down, and since Android was introduced and your Droid 1 launched the Android world has exploded, and the philosophy behind Android is Open Source, so by you transistioning to more of the closed and 'locked' bootloader policy it's making you look more and more at what was the past in the mobile world, sure Apple is still here, but I assume that most of the people who have tried Android from Apple love the experience, and if Apple doesn't make some major changes they will simply become average, while Android becomes the best. So first some stats for you, as I'm sure you know already, but some may not, but there are over 500,000 new Android activations every single day! That's a big number, and it is rising. It has been proven look at just about every single Android device released, they are all rooted for the most part, whether its supported by the manufacturer or not. So root is going to happen no matter if you like it or not, but there are pros and cons to each way of looking at it.
so first the con side, root can be bad, it can ruin a brand new device and steal users info and all other kinds of nasty things, but root is also a nice tool, its good for all of us who want to truly be unlimted with our phones and devices, I'm not going to preach about all the benefits of root, if you want that I'm sure you can find thousands of other sites and blogs with that infomation, instead I'm going to focus on something root does for all of us. One of the root methods found in Android Froyo [2.2] was the 'rage against the cage' while it was an exploit that let all of us root our devices, it also was a way for true 'hackers' with ILL intentions to harm the people who had no idea and were innocent bystanders. Where as the people who found it simply had to use in order to root a device, they had no intentions of using it to steal identies and credit card infomation or anything else for that matter. But the 'hackers' who did are all piggy backing on everyone with the good intentions. With root not being endorsed it makes it easier for everyone to cause malware and harm to the Android name. Now if root was an exteneded option on Android rage against the cage may not have ever been found or used, because there wouldn't be nearly as many people looking for an exploit in the software. But with everyone looking those who want to use it to do bad things then their life is so much easier. They let us do the work and take the bullet and they get to take what they want. So think about it like this If root was an extra option from the manufacturer there wouldn't be nearly as many people trying to find a way to crack your software and make you look bad. Now root is still not something for everyone, but at least the option for it could and most likely would help Android and the manufacturers in the long haul.
Now onto the final point I have, OEM Supported ROMs I know its something you are first going to say will NEVER happen, but look at it like this, others have openly started to partially get to this stage, for example HTCDEV.com coming soon is the section on how to unlock bootloaders, that is good news and the developer community is happy with all that for now, as its a dynamic change in views which is wonderful news. Sony openly supports it as well, just check out this link Unlocking the boot loader | unlockbootloader.sonyericsson.com right on their site how to do it. Now I have to give you guys credit for trying you enabled an unlockable bootloader on the Xoom and now the Atrix, but I have yet to find details on how to do it from you. I have even called and asked various customer service people, most who had no idea what bootloader even was, and the few that did said that you don't support it and I should not do it, and will lose all warrenty from you. All of which I have no problem with. However it was known you supported the unlock the Xoom, otherwise you wouldn't have put it in, so why have your reps say no it's not supported and can't be done? So my first recomendation is to at least make a site or sub site about how to unlock the 'supported' devices witht he bootloaders, think about it, we don't have to come to you to get the info on how to do it, but if we can it makes you look better to all of us. Now onto the second part. like stated in that thread, with a few variations if you officially support unlockable bootloaders on all devices the developer community will love you and embrace it with open arms and your sales will sky rocket, everyone will buy Motorola over the others because of the new policy, but if you also say hey we support community developer ROMs on our devices not only will everyone love you, we will all pee our pants and praise the h**l out of you for ever! Now I'm sure you wondering how the h**l are we supposed to do that and make sure they all work like they should and deal with the head ache its more work than it will benefit. Well that all depends on how you go about it.
I've got plans all figured out on how you could do this seemlessly and easily with little headache on your part, other than making your devices unlockable. I would post it all, but if you are interested I wouldn't want someone like HTC or Sony stealing them and using them first. So I'm giving you Motorola first dibs on this. I also thought about you in the financial aspect so its not like you wouldn't get anything from this, you would also recieve a nice kickback from people using this service, so extra cash, developer and community wide spread peeing of the pants, love and praise for the ages could all be yours. I know even if you are interested it's not something that would be done next week or month, it would take some time to get it all together after we would iron out the details, but I think the investment on your part would go a long way. Hopefully everyone can show you this by supporting me in this thread. I will be posting links on twitter my twitter ID is @DroidConcepts, So if anyone would like to retweet please do, and tweet it yourself as well. I have also emailed this to Motorola, and within the next few weeks will present this to HTC, Sony, LG, and Google. If you or one of them is interested than great I would be more than thrilled to work with you, and I'm not even asking for any money, just a nice new device here and there.. So any feedback from you Motorola is very much welcomed and appreciated and I look forward to hopefully talking further about this, hopefully over the phone, or maybe a trip to the headquarters....
-Woody
I can be reached at the twitter username: @DroidConcepts or by email at [email protected]
I look forward to your response!
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I know this was long, so thank you all for following and reading, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show your support so Motorola can not only see how important this is for all of us and the Android community but for them as well.
Twitter link: https://twitter.com/#!/DroidConcepts/status/102548734499495937
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I originally posted this here: https://supportforums.motorola.com/thread/55945
Please RT and support if you can!
This decision may come as a surprise to some of our readers, particularly given the sales figures posted by Samsung for recent product launches such as the flagship Galaxy S3 and Note II. Nonetheless, this year, the XDA Developers’ OEM of the Year is Sony Mobile.
The relationship between XDA and Sony has been frosty in the past, thanks in part to the locking of bootloaders, subsequent lack of updates, and Sony’s efforts in early 2011 to target open source community “developers” with lawsuits in other product categories (such as the Playstation 3). This resulted in many top developers turning a blind eye to anything and everything Sony. They eventually dropped the suit later on in the year, but that was no consolation to the community.
Despite these events, a change was signaled in September of 2011, when Sony’s Head of Developer Relations posted a notice to the community that they supported independent Android OS developers. Then in early 2012, Sony Mobile released the Sony Xperia S, the first Sony Android phone to be released with flagship-level specs. Soon after, Sony signaled a change in their stance towards open source development by releasing a guide for unlocking the bootloader on the Xperia S and then releasing not only the kernel source code but also a guide for building it.
In just over 12 months, they had gone from suing a developer that hacked the bootloader on his own purchased device, to providing the tools to unlock the bootloader on a high-quality device and giving users the instructions to build the kernel source. No other manufacturer had done that, nor have any others to date. That is full-on GPLv2 compliance like we’ve never seen before at XDA.
Here is a list of the other steps they took towards openness in the community in 2012:
In March Sony officially released a public beta of ICS for the Xperia Play when no other manufacturer was officially releasing betas.
In April Sony released ICS for their entire 2011 line of devices, becoming the first manufacturer to do so.
Their Sony Developer Relations team announced a program to allow developers to borrow devices for application testing.
In August the Sony Xperia S became the first non-Nexus device (not counting the Motorola Xoom) to be included in the AOSP device tree as an experimental device. They then followed that up by releasing the AOSP binaries for the Xperia S.
Later in August Sony began open-sourcing their own code for the Dynamic Android Sensor Hardware Abstraction Layer (DASH for short) to the community.
In October they joined XDA at the Big Android BBQ to discuss their plans for further open source interaction in the community.
They announced they would be taking the lead for the AOSP source for the Xperia S and manage it themselves in their own github, and begin merging in Android 4.2.
They continue to utilize their highly active development blog where their developer team discusses their views on Android, and announce preview “Alpha” and “Beta” builds of updated device firmware and seek user feedback.
CyanogenMod custom firmware distribution is maintained for several Sony devices by a number of Sony Mobile developers, in their own time.
Given the recent trend by companies such as Samsung to often overlook the custom ROM developer community (in favor of application developers), it is refreshing to see Sony going far beyond what is required to improve the experience of their devices for anyone interested in developing for the platform. Given their contributions to the Android community-at-large in 2012 alone, and their complete turn around in less than 16 months, Sony is XDA’s OEM of the Year for 2012!
If you’re looking for a couple great options for Sony devices, we recommend the Xperia S or the Xperia T.
Now, what we really want to hear is YOUR top OEM for 2012. Vote below to let us know!
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The link
The only thing holding me back from this device is the locked boot loader:crying:
Pretty sure one major reason why LG won't make the bootloader open is the exclusive game and software contracts they have on this phone with certain service providers in Asia.
The funny thing about Sony, and other companies, is that they will only release a bootloader like this if someone is not willing to pay to keep it closed. So the praise for Sony here is a bit misplaced, to put it like that. Generally rooted phones receive a limited amount of support afterwards, simply because they believe they don't earn any money on them afterwards.
I.e., the only reason Sony does something like this isn't because they will design their own software shell to operate with other shells. Instead it's for two reasons:
1. They're 100% confident that rooted shells are inferior to theirs, and is locked down in certain ways that makes it useless as far as replacing the original one.
2. They realize that an extremely small number of people actually do root their phones or use a custom kernel.
Now, if they came out and said: "We have a sales philsophy that isn't tied to the locked down shell, and instead one that is focused on the device and the features of the device only. While the software we have can be used interchangeably with other shells, because of the way it's designed from the bottom up to do so - and we encourage the community to create their variants of the surrounding software package". If they did that, they'd deserve praise.
Something like this - well, that's about the same level as praising a mugger for telling you where he's going to fence your stuff.
UIQrules said:
Pretty sure one major reason why LG won't make the bootloader open is the exclusive game and software contracts they have on this phone with certain service providers in Asia.
The funny thing about Sony, and other companies, is that they will only release a bootloader like this if someone is not willing to pay to keep it closed. So the praise for Sony here is a bit misplaced, to put it like that. Generally rooted phones receive a limited amount of support afterwards, simply because they believe they don't earn any money on them afterwards.
I.e., the only reason Sony does something like this isn't because they will design their own software shell to operate with other shells. Instead it's for two reasons:
1. They're 100% confident that rooted shells are inferior to theirs, and is locked down in certain ways that makes it useless as far as replacing the original one.
2. They realize that an extremely small number of people actually do root their phones or use a custom kernel.
Now, if they came out and said: "We have a sales philsophy that isn't tied to the locked down shell, and instead one that is focused on the device and the features of the device only. While the software we have can be used interchangeably with other shells, because of the way it's designed from the bottom up to do so - and we encourage the community to create their variants of the surrounding software package". If they did that, they'd deserve praise.
Something like this - well, that's about the same level as praising a mugger for telling you where he's going to fence your stuff.
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Well you are actually misguided on this one. Sony's Developer Relations team does not want any of their device's bootloader locked - it's the carriers who desire them locked. At the executive level, Sony has to deal with misperception that unlocked bootloader == rooted phone. They are slowly changing that mindset, but it's an uphill battle. There are a large number of Sony devices capable of being unlocked, and they go to great lengths to make sure they help the user do it.
What will always be a struggle is the carrier's and their hold on the industry. Once that hold gets loosened, then we'll see a lot more positive things.
Emailing to HTC
a.k.a.
- - - Operation "ath6kl_sdio.ko" - - -
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Hey Guys,
As you know, our great little phone has lot of potentials, but HTC condemned it to the status of an entry-level phone, meaning its main purpose is to draw new customers to their more expensive devices. And thus they leave us in the dark in the development front, and not just us but other less hi-spec phones too, like our twin-brother the Explorer forum or the Amaze 4G who have both achieved amazing things despite the lack of support.
Compared to other companies like Sony and Samsung who aims to be a "good open source citizen" by releasing entire source codes ahead of the actual phone launch, we can call it carelessness, laziness or a marketing model with debatable efficiency, but that is not too important now.
The only thing we can do - similarly to other users of neglected phones, like the Amaze 4G - is to inundate HTC with emails from each one of us, so they become aware that there is a strong and willing community of Desire C users who are devoted to this phone not just because it is cheap, but for other reasons too :victory:
For me personally it's the size that hands down beats all the higher-spec bigger bros, and feature wise all it's category. Think about yours and write to them.
The aim of this thread is to highlight the holes in the official support and to provide information for anyone who is prepared to write HTC regarding the development issues we are facing. The post below will be updated parallel with the info we are gathering here.
>>> Therefore it would be appreciated if our devs and more technically literate members added their insights on these problems, so it can be communicated to the company effectively in an appropriate manner.
However we are looking for sharing valuable information here as we don't have anything else right now, so please aim for constructive comments and don't spam the thread with "it aint gonna happen no way" and "i hate you HTC, die cun**ts", herpaderpaderp and so on.
Sobbing, ranting or being cynical does not help at all, in fact does the opposite. <<<
::::: So guys, we can choose wether moaning about the shortcomings of our phone or actually do something about it even if one isn't a dev. Based on the info you find here and on these forums, write an email to HTC, some of us have done it already. We have nothing to lose and a pro-active collective attitude can make real change. In fact that's the only thing that does
CLICK to write to HTC
if you run out of space in the provided text-box, alternatively you can contact them here:
http://www.htc.com/uk/contact/email/
However, expect to get a well-bred canned reply with no actual help at all, but as an example look at the recent Amaze 4G success story (thanks for odunluzikkim and sakindia123 for pointing out).
You have to realise our strength is in collective effort, and its success is depending on each one of us, seriously.
To educate yourself in the topic:
-- about the success of the Amaze 4G community:
http://www.change.org/petitions/htc...ivers-sourcecode-associated-with-the-amaze-4g
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1679112
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1557500
-- about HTC's violations and company attitude:
http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/41833.html
http://users.livejournal.com/joshua_/43185.html
http://www.androidcentral.com/htc-c...ore-decisive?utm_source=ac&utm_medium=twitter
-- about the competition and HTC's situation on the market:
http://www.tmonews.com/2013/01/as-s...-different-financial-results-can-htc-survive/
http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Samsung+Snag+99+of+Mobile+Phone+Profits+/article24616.htm
-- about software licensing:
http://www.fsf.org/about/
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License
http://www.bsdnewsletter.com/bsd/license.html
http://pthree.org/2007/08/08/bsd-license-explained-in-layman-terms/
And finally, if you believe this is a good cause and benefits for the whole Android and Open-Source Community:
) ) ) ) ) SPREAD THE WORD! ( ( ( ( (
- Include this or the petition in your signature and blog and write about it in forums. Click to download the press pack or the avatar pack
- Use Twitter, Facebook, G+ and all your social networks to tweet, share, post about it and about HTC's ignorant attitude
- Bombard @HTC and @HTCdev Twitter and Facebook and express the issue
More on #HASHTAGS will follow later -
Stay tuned
How and What to Write
Known issues with official support that hinders us in development:
Source code of the WiFi driver called "ath6kl_sdio.ko", that prevents the porting of fully functioning custom ROMs like CM9/10, AOKP and so on
S-OFF
ICS 4.04
Bootloader or Stock Kernel bug that causes reboot in Recovery
And we have the lack of Jelly Bean issue, but honestly I believe it is part of HTC's marketing policy, and asking them for it would be like asking Apple to build SD card slot in iPhones lol. Officially it is not gonna happen. But I also believe porting JB will happen sooner or later regardless if they care or not, and if they can make our devs' work easier with something, that is even better.
However given the situation, our priority now is the precious ath6kl_sdio.ko driver. And we will get it one way or an other So the emails and our petition should be focused on that, we can deal with the rest once we have this.
::::: Sooo, you want to write an email to HTC? Let our voice be heard and spam the hell out of them! But we need to do it professionally Have a good read on hasoon2000's thread from the Amaze 4G forum, it's amazing what these guys have been gone through. They have tried literally EVERYTHING and they were ready to push it even further.
The Battle Plan, Phase 1:
Phase 1 Operation “ath6kl_sido.ko”
Email Awareness Campaign;
This campaign will be a focused in two pronged strategy to HTC. The idea behind this is to create awareness within HTC that ;
(a) There is a problem with the Desire C software that needs to be addressed
(b) That we will not back down from this issue
(c) That the standard emails from support agents are not good enough and getting us nowhere
(d) That we would like the problem escalated to the appropriate division
(e) That we get a clear and defined answer to the problem from HTC
With this in mind we will embark on the following strategy;
i. Design four emails to HTC, hardcore and soft core, Desire C user and Non desire c users. DONE
ii. Orchestrate a combined email drive to htc support and htc public relations departments on Monday 8th April starting at 12:00 gmt
iii. These emails will be sent as close together as possible
iv. The troops will select a mail of the four templates that they comfortable with and adjust them if need be
v. That the emails will go to the following email addresses only: [email protected] (Vice President of Global Communications & Public Affairs); [email protected]
vi. This strategy will be implemented for one week only and then we will change tactics.
vii. To involve as many people as possible, including, family members and friends who do not belong to XDA
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A couple of things to consider before writing your email:
--- "ath6kl_sdio.ko" was released by Atheros Communications Inc. under dual BSD/GPL license.
Apparently this means they are not obliged to release the code, since BSD - in contrast to GPL -, allows them to keep it if they want to. Dual BSD/GPL means they are free to choose either of the licenses:
- GPL grants that the code stays open source, once it has been reused it has to be released by law, no matter how mighty the company is there is no way around it, and this is why corporations don't like it, obviously it is set against the capitalist framework, and this is why open source loves it.
- BSD is also a free software license, but it allows you to take the free code and not giving it back to the open source community.
We can safely assume HTC chose the second option.
Basically we have to accept the fact that legally, they have the right to keep the code. On the other hand it is not a good fashion from them to do so, and we have to highlight this to them and to anyone out there on every possible channels. This is what means "giving them a bad PR".
--- From a point of marketing efficiency: HTC has been doing quite badly for while now against their competition, who recognised the asset in the co-operation with communities like ours. More support means more trustable brand image and stronger customer base. They are losing market due to being closed-minded.
--- Brand image: which company wants to be known for **** support, especially if they are openly state the opposite. On the main page of www.htcdev.com can be read:
HTC is constantly pushing to create the ultimate experience for developers. Now you can access the tools you need to make great things happen.
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- sounds quite embarrassing after flicking through the pages of this thread...
--- Keeping the code is very questionable ethically, this is what also russell664 was pointing out in his emails. This is a rational we can stick to, because there is simply no reason to keep the source code away from us, other then a stubborn and static marketing model, which is being proven to be outdated, inefficient and unsustainable. They are hoping an upheaval from One X and Sense 5, which is great, but the other companies have great new stuff too plus a loyal customer base, boooo....
--- Keeping the Desire C source code is not a question of life and death to them, but rather an initial decision which follows an outdated marketing model which leaves the open source initiative, like ours out of consideration (A clever company however grabs every bit of opportunity to turn it into profit). This is why we have to make them aware that we are here and we want the code, and we are not going to stop until they release it.
--- HTC is a huge company with bureaucratic structure. Convincing them won't be an easy task, be prepared to for a long and tough struggle. For the guys in Amaze 4G forum took 7 month. However they already have pioneered this before us which hopefully makes our job a bit easier. We just have to follow their example.
Be adult (even if you are not) and consider these before you post "...they don't help us... :crying:" etc. Know that they won't acknowledge their mistake or tell you "here is the driver, mr. xda member desire c user". Remember it is not a person but a corporate entity we are talking to at the end.
Do your homework:
Everyone who is concerned, please read through hasoon2000's thread, there is everything you need to know about how to deal with HTC. It is 30 pages but if you don't, you have no right to complain y u no have CM9
Let me quote the enlightening words of negotiation-master hasoon2000 from this post:
Remember, HTC is a huge company. You can't send an email like this
Y u know releaze da driverz 4 da Desiya See.
You have to be professional with them, at all times.
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Read ALL my posts so you can see my professionalism and CALL THEM OUT! Don't accept what they have to say. Frankly, I don't care what they say because I know what they will say. You need to attract attention and give them bad PR, professionally of course. After months of working on it and teaching people, they finally released the source.
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Unified template? Don't even. If I received multiple emails of the same thing with the only difference is the name, I wouldn't care because you didn't actually make an effort to convince me. Everyone has different experiences with different manufacturers, phones, etc. Tell them your story, why you got the Desire C. Whether it's because you have a budget or you don't want the latest and greatest phone. Maybe because you like the size of the phone or you have small hands. Whatever it may be, they had a reason for you to buy the phone or everything else. Tell them why you bought it, how you want to customize the phone with your hard earned money.
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These guys are corporate people. All they want is money. Find statistics on how HTC is losing sales and how Samsung/Apple are getting more market share. Tell them how HTC is losing customers and exposure over something small. Compressing the source code takes no more than 2 minutes. Uploading it takes a few minutes. Is that REALLY going to kill them? No, unless they don't release the source code. Tell them how Samsung was not developer friendly in the beginning and when they became developer friendly, look at them now. They are making BANK! HTC could do the same IF they weren't being assholes. When someone sees how cool a phone is when it has a custom ROM, people will start purchasing from that manufacturer because of the cool stuff it can do. Tell them all these things! Look at the Amaze 4G, we got out source.
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And now some examples of his correspondence with the company. Look at how he did not let them to overwhelm him and get away with bullsh*it. He broke the same canned responses what we already got, and gained attention with sheer logic:
Here is what I wrote:
HTC has made a promise to help to development community by releasing the source code as well as unlocking the bootloader for their devices. However, the TI WLAN source code has been withheld from the community. This slows development and can even cease development for the device completely. Without the source code, developers will have to develop blindly and hoping not to break anything in the process. The Amaze 4G has great potential due to his hardware and power that it harnesses. Android is an Open Source OS, but HTC is sounding more like Apple, holding their source from the public. People purchased the device to experience the "Real Feel" of Android by customizing it, installing Custom ROMs, tweaking it, etc. Without the WLAN source code, we, as a community, have starting to lose faith in HTC and some of us have even pledged to never purchase an HTC device again due to HTC's policies. The community will like for HTC to rethink their strategy and be "Open" with the community. The best form of advertisement is by "The Word-of-Mouth". When our community, the tech savvy and the owners of a smartphone, see how HTC listens to their customers requests, they will become more profitable and retain/gain new and loyal customers.
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Follow along my lines but don't copy and paste it. Be truthful to them. Open your mind/heart. Tell them why we want, why it will help, why it will help their image with consumers, how it can lead to more business and brand loyalty.
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HTC responded to me
Dear Odai,
I understand you would like to have certain source codes like the WLAN drivers to the development community. I realize that this information is of great importance to you. The only source code we have available is the full source code available on the HTC Developer website at http://htcdev.com. We do not currently have an option to send individual parts of the source code separately. Any parts of the kernel source code that are not included in the released source code on the website should be considered propriety and not available for release. Please visit http://htcdev.com/contact to leave comments about this feature. I thank you for sending your email to HTC today.
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My response to that
Since HTC is committed to helping the development community, hence HTCDev has been started, there have been a fair share of issues that is being withheld from us. There has been a lack of support for certain devices since new flagship phones have been released. For example, the HTC Amaze 4G is a device with great hardware, but HTC has not given us full support due to the face of the HTC One series being released. As a business student, I understand what is being done. HTC would like their new flagship phones to sell and give less support to older devices. However, we are being left out and since this is my first non-Nokia device, I feel betrayed by HTC already. I purchased the Amaze 4G due to its hardware and I know it can unleash its true potential, only with the help of HTC. However, this is not the case. There are devices with over 10 custom made kernels and how many does the Amaze have? Only one and that is for Gingerbread and it has slight modifications since the full source has not be released. This is a huge setback to us users. We have barely any type of custom ROMs. We have not AOSP (Android Open Source Project) ROMs since we need the full kernel source to even make a kernel that is compatible with AOSP ROMs.
The Sensation development is sky high booming with plenty of developers. As a developer for the HTC Amaze 4G, looking at the Sensation development is heart breaking. The Amaze is truly better, but yet has no support from those who created it. It is like leaving a baby in the street. You do not do that.
HTC needs to realize for those who purchase their devices and would like to retain loyalty to HTC, HTC needs to treat their customers back as well. Without us, HTC is nothing.
As I stated earlier, this is my first Non-Nokia device and I already feel betrayed by HTC. If HTC cannot fix their act and be committed to those purchase their devices, they will lose customers significantly.
There should be a way to release the full source to us HTC Amaze 4G owners by talking to other companies that have their hardware in the Amaze. If that cannot be done, this will be my first and last HTC device ever.
So do what you can and stay committed to your program for us HTC users. Without your support, we feel betrayed since the company is not living up to their word. For us, it is hypocrisy while you guys believe it is business. The best business is customer support. If customers are not given what they have been truly promised, HTC might as well just shut down or reallocate to another industry. Just my opinions and my response.
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The responded to my message.
I can definitely understand how the previous agent’s answer would make you upset. I’ll be glad to help you, Odai. By law, all that we are required to release is the kernel source code. HTC will release source code in accordance with any applicable open source license terms, i.e. GPL v2.0. Other source codes, which are not required to be disclosed by the open source license terms, unfortunately cannot be disclosed by HTC, as they may be proprietary to HTC or its licensor.
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My response
Samuel, thank you for responding. Danielle blew off my message and that is not great customer service. However, I see conflicting interests from messages I have been told as well as other. Some of the users have been told
"HTC will typically publish on http://developer.htc.com or htcdev.com the Kernel open source code for recently released devices as soon as possible. HTC will normally publish this within 90 to 120 days. This time frame is within the requirements of the open source community."
Also, "Hello, (name omitted), and thank you for contacting HTC regarding your concerns with the T-Mobile Amaze ICS kernel source code. I understand how important it is for you to have this information for your phone. As you stated in your email to us, you aren’t talking about the Gingerbread source code, but I would like to note that the source code for Gingerbread is available on our htcdev.com website. The ICS software for the Amaze is relatively new for us, having just released a couple months ago. It does take time for the code to be compiled and we aren’t trying to keep it from you or our other customers. Also, the Amaze does have Sense 3.6 when upgraded to ICS, as do all our devices, thus far, that have received the ICS update. Unfortunately, though it is available for customer use, we don’t support the htcdev.com website and do not know if or when the kernel source code for ICS will be released. I apprecate you contacting us with your concerns and thank you for being an HTC customer!"
Why are the messages all conflicting? Some say it is not required, some say you have to wait 90 - 120 days when devices, like the Sensation, received the source code within 2 weeks of the ICS release. The management is either terrible or the staff is not properly trained.
Do you see why we are not happy with HTC? High Tech Computers is what HTC stands for, correct? HTC is also looking to help out the development community, correct? The only company that TRULY believes in the development community is Samsung. They acknowledged the work at XDA-Developers.com and they see how important it is to get in touch with those who love to customize their devices. Without releasing the source code to use so we can take advantage of OUR devices, you'll end up with unsatisfied customers and you will lose loyal customers. As a first time owner of an HTC device, I am pretty mad that I can't truly take advantage of it. I worked for T-Mobile for a few years and sold many HTC and Samsung phones. I always saw the Samsung owners are able to have full and true control of their devices. It is not the same however, with HTC.
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Remember folks! TAKE INITIATIVE! CALL THEM OUT! TELL THEM WHAT OTHER COMPANIES ARE DOING! Be a man! lol
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Can I say progress?
Dear Odai,
Thanks for getting back to me, Odai. I’m honestly not sure why there is conflicting information. The first email that you quoted contains the correct information. The time frame that we generally release new kernels is 90 to 120 days. Though I don’t know why the Sensation’s source code was available so soon, there’s no reason I can see why the Amaze’s wouldn’t be released within the 90 to 120 time frame previously mentioned. Since the Amaze 4G is part of the bootloader unlock program, the latest source code will be posted to htcdev.com when available. Due to the inconsistency of the responses you’ve seen, I can definitely understand why you and others would be so unhappy. Personally, I’m going to do what I can to make sure this addressed and prevent conflicting and misinformation in the future. I agree with you that members of the developer community have the right to this information and only with that can they push their devices to the limit. If there’s anything else I can do for you, please let me know. Thanks again for taking the time to contact us and for being an HTC customer.
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My response
Samuel, I am glad that you have acknowledged the issues and the inconsistency in the messages we are given. I commend you for that.
As a Recognized Developer on XDA-Developers, as well as speaking on behalf of the Amaze 4G community, we would like HTC to work a deal with us. We need the source code, the full source code I should say, to help our development for the Amaze.
Reasons are as follows:
1. It will retain customer loyalty.
2. It will increase in sales/customer database.
3. Receiving a better name for the company.
I will explain how it will for each reason.
1. As I have stated, it will retain customer loyalty. When customers see the company taking care of them and fully addressing their issues, customers will be happy, even if the problem is not fixed. They see HTC cares and tries to do their best. HTC has well built all around devices and that is why customers continue purchasing HTC devices.
2. The sales number will increase. It may be a slight amount, but when customers enjoy their phones, they will continue purchasing the devices in the future. When I show my friends what my phone can do, it blows their mind. I have friends who purchase the phone I have because I show them what it can do and what their phones cannot do. Remember, the best advertisement is word-of-mouth.
3. A company should be a people company. HTC shows that they care about the development community by opening HTCDev. That is wonderful to see someone has been paying attention to us. Samsung does promotions specifically for XDA-Developers. They have truly recognized our community and they even hired a developer! HTC should see how big the customer base of XDA-Developers, CyanogenMod, RootzWiki and many other development websites/forums. When they show true interest in us, we will defend the company if someone speaks bad about it, etc.
All the reasons tie in with one another. Samuel, I believe you should pass our conversation along to the higher management. They should not blow our community off.
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Are you guys taking notes??
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Another response
Dear Odai,
I really appreciate all the feedback you’ve given us, Odai. I can definitely take and forward our conversation to management. Hopefully through this we can get you guys some more support. If there’s ever anything else I can do for you, just let me know. I hope you have a good weekend, and thanks again for reaching out to us.
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You guys REALLY need to do the same as I did! BRING IT TO THEIR ATTENTION!
Read the conversation. Look at my writing style. See how I took the initiative and yet, I was 100% professional?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Okay, you enjoyed the reading I hope
Finally, here are the points to bear in mind, ALWAYS:
When you contact them initially, the agent handles you as a retard by default: answers to questions you didn't ask or just simply gives stupid answers. Not because he is a bad person or high on drugs, but not trained on solving such a case. If it becomes apparent that they cannot manage your query, the maximum they can do is to escalate the case, but again, it depends on the agent, towards which department does he/she do that, it can vary. But if we push it through, at the end this will be more efficient since they will be having the same case coming from all over the departments of the company, and the managers of each of these departments will have to notice us as a community with strong commitment, among the usual "how to change my battery" or "my dog swallowed my Wildfire, you gonna pay for this" type of emails. If your first email fits to the text box provided on www.htcdev.com, then the best is if you send your email there.
The point is that their ridiculous initial ignorance actually pays off for you, because you can embarrass them by facing them with their own outcrying stupidity, such as they don't even know their own devices. Complain about their poor customer support and give examples why until they have to take you seriously, and believe me - they will. After this most possibly you will get a new agent who uses less template and replies to your actual questions, and not like an answering-bot. But for this, you need get though the initial impersonal template-using phase. So again please, don't post their reply with comments like "wtf thats weird" and "thats a whole load of bullcraq and [email protected]*%trash" - otherwise everyone will think you are childish. Don't be naive and expect their initial style, which will change if you don't behave like a child, trust me.
Also aim to post their reply with yours, with the one you replied, to keep the ball rolling. You have the chance to be more pro-active here, this is what we need, don't just paste it passively and then expect we will munching on it. We already have seen enough of those emails, show us your initiative! And don't leave your first email out of the conversation, so other members can benefit from your words. Don't be shy, everyone has to start somehow and we are here to help each other.
And most importantly, you will have to maintain a professional manner, otherwise you lose your advantage as a serious and self-aware customer you have against them.
>>>>>>>>
Here is what I wrote (thanks for whoamigriffiths for the english check). You can follow the lines of these and hasoon2000's original email, but please make it personal, don't just copy-paste it. Remember what he told us here. Explain them what you want and why you want it, why it is important to us and why co-operation is beneficial for both of us, and why the lack of real co-operation is not. Also, express that you are writing in the name of the whole community. You can mention our forum had more then 2.000.000 views since it was founded in July 2012.
And most importantly, be explicit. Always state that you want the source code of the WiFi driver "ath6kl_sdio.ko".
They will continue to hear about us Wether they like it or not.
Dear HTC,
I belong to a thriving community of Desire C users and developers. We like this phone very much and chose it for numerous reasons, price was not the only factor.
Personally I like its small size which still comes with an attractive design and relatively good performance.
For me, these features helped me decide to choose this phone, not only over others in the same category, but over more expensive devices on the market - hands down.
However the lack of substantive official support for our phone hinders us in further enhancing this already great little device.
We as a community are well aware that certain things, like official Jelly Bean support is unlikely to happen for various reasons that are both out of our reach as well as out of your reach too as a Company.
But speaking in the name of our Community, I am asking you to kindly enhance your customer support and, like your competitors, release more source code for us to use.
The most important code that we need is:
- the source code of the WiFi driver "ath6kl_sdio.ko" that is not present in the kernel source
Without it the porting of fully functioning custom ROMs like the famous CyanogenMod, AOSP and AOKP is not possible.
We have been fond of HTC since the Hero came out, which was the first phone on the market that was cool enough to compete with iPhone.
Also we have appreciated the Companys attitude in opening up to the Open-Source Community in the past by setting up HTCdev.com, that has been providing help for Independent Developers.
We aim to further strengthen this co-operation and believe together we can work for even better devices that are more customised according to the users needs.
This makes us - your more adventurous customers - happier and our work on this device has to be for the good of everyone: us, HTC and quite possibly, both new phones and new customers in the future.
A better support now, also makes it possible for us to tell everyone in the Open-Source Community that HTC is one of those rare Companies which honestly cares for its users.
With kindest regards,
Your Name
from XDA Developers HTC Desire C Community
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Soon, like the Amaze 4G guys we will release a petition, which will be addressed to Peter Chou, the CEO of HTC. Until then write your emails and stay optimist regardless of the response, remember the positive example in front of us. Stay focused on what we want and be persistent. No need to get angry, simply because we are part of something which is incomparably stronger then them:laugh:
Great job starting this thread :good: .Hopefully all the desire c users from our forum will support this and our device can finally get the attention it deserves
Re: Emails to HTC
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
Yup great idea . Hopefully we can keep this thread positive
Apex-Predator said:
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
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are you sure? i'm asking because had been like this before. did you read this link? this thread? it's worked before.
Apex-Predator said:
U guys want help from htc ????
They won't !!!
U ask for help to out Pico devs .....
They will surely help u
If u want htc to help u guys
Wait for years
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
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I think emailing HTC and asking help from Pico devs doesn't exclude each other. We do whatever we can, and all the help is appreciated really much, as already it is from you guys We are pulling ourselves together for bigger horizons.
As far as i'm concerned, we need to annoy HTC to prove that there is a user base that requires support. Weather that support is in the form of jellybean or the source code of the kernel with WIFI modules. The point is as many others will agree is that HTC is a hand out and forget company they release nice little phones, and leave them unsupported, which is wrong, we need to get HTC's attention on this matter, me for one am sending multiple emails to them asking why they will not do anything, and if they can release some more source code.
Hopefully we can make something of this thread, keep it positive and post your emails from HTC here so everyone can see what they say about the matter.
The devs should focus on a CM9 setup, leave HTC devs behind, yes there open source would help but they wont help due to no money involved, the push the power of this phone it looses them money on the bigger phones (One X etc) our devs have the ability to make a CM9 or JB rom, support our devs!!!!
XDroidie626 said:
The devs should focus on a CM9 setup, leave HTC devs behind, yes there open source would help but they wont help due to no money involved, the push the power of this phone it looses them money on the bigger phones (One X etc) our devs have the ability to make a CM9 or JB rom, support our devs!!!!
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hey XDroidie626, I agree with you that the reason for lack of support is that there is no money incentive behind it, but there is also a vested interest for the big companies to support open-source communities, which pays off indirectly for them and it is good for everyone, and it's an increasing trend. I think emialing HTC and supporting our devs do not exclude each other, we put in whatever we can
stick
I think the thread should be sticked, as it is for raising awareness for new and existing members. If you think it too, report it through the reporting service and ask for making it stick.
Okay I contacted them, and this is what I got:
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding your HTC Desire C.
My name is Rob and I am a Technical Support Agent for the HTC Written Team.
I understand you are missing the Wi-Fi modules in the kernel source code.
I'm afraid we do not have the facility to send certain parts of the source code. If you are not able to find the part you are looking for, please then follow the HTC Dev Twitter. Any additional releases will be posted on here.
HTC Dev twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.
I am confident that this will resolve your query, in the unlikely event that this does not please call or instant chat to one of our Technical Support Agents who will be waiting to guide you through step by step. Our Contact Details can be found at www.htc.com/uk/contact
Should you wish to continue your correspondence via email then please reply using the link below
Not one bit of help
guys forget jB .. htc one v doesnt have it so does desire c ... look for ics 4.0.4 with sense 4.1 !!
Re: [INFO] Emails to HTC
russell664 said:
Okay I contacted them, and this is what I got:
Thank you for contacting HTC regarding your HTC Desire C.
My name is Rob and I am a Technical Support Agent for the HTC Written Team.
I understand you are missing the Wi-Fi modules in the kernel source code.
I'm afraid we do not have the facility to send certain parts of the source code. If you are not able to find the part you are looking for, please then follow the HTC Dev Twitter. Any additional releases will be posted on here.
HTC Dev twitter: https://twitter.com/htcdev
Sorry for any inconvenience this has caused you.
I am confident that this will resolve your query, in the unlikely event that this does not please call or instant chat to one of our Technical Support Agents who will be waiting to guide you through step by step. Our Contact Details can be found at www.htc.com/uk/contact
Should you wish to continue your correspondence via email then please reply using the link below
Not one bit of help
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I told ya
They won't help !!!
U guys need to find our own ways
Sent from my HTC Explorer A310e using xda premium
Post this thread on your Twitter, Facebook etc!
Email sended :3
@alex-predator, i asking you again. did you read this? http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1679112
really, not to be so pessimistic.
russell664 said:
Not one bit of help
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It's not surprising, but we have to keep pushing to reach a critical mass
utsav17 said:
guys forget jB .. htc one v doesnt have it so does desire c ... look for ics 4.0.4 with sense 4.1 !!
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Please read this post, no one is hoping for official JB here.
Apex-Predator said:
I told ya
They won't help !!!
U guys need to find our own ways
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No one said it is going to happen by writing an email, and as I said to keep contacting HTC by the entire community doesn't exclude finding our own ways in developing, in fact this is what our devs are doing right now.
And to everyone who is reading this, from now on I would really appreciate if you only posted constructive comments, this thread is not for gloating or giving out frustrations but to help to make things happen. Thank you!
Thank you for taking the time to contact HTC technical support.
I appreciate you taking the time to provide us with some feedback regarding what you would like to see us provide to better assist you and other members of the development community, Andrew.
I will certainly notate your feedback for consideration with regards to providing specific source codes and providing an S-Off option in the future.
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Sure, they have given me a "positive" answer...in the future....
TheRedHunter said:
Sure, they have given me a "positive" answer...in the future....
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These are 100% the expected responses, we just have to keep pushing on a regular basis, all of us.
Suggestion
I know that other thread asked for people to write from the heart etc in an attempt(successful) to get things done
But
And this is just a suggestion from personal experience.
The majority of people are likely to read a thread like this and nod in agreement , then do nothing about it.
It might be good if someone wrote a 'template' email for people to copy and paste as well as the link to the email of HTC (Already includedI know).
You might find you get a much better response from the people who read (and don't generally participate)the Forum.
I know HTC will see the same email over and over BUT they will be from different people and phone numbers . It will in effect become a written protest from desire c owners.