Related
There has been some discussion and rumor about a ghost thread and someone keeping a rom from the public, I've looked into the situation and by this message would like to respond publicly about it. I hope this will clear up any rumors going around and will return this forum to what it should be, a place to discuss and develop.
The "ghost thread":
The thread with subject "How to cook in a OEM Application (package) with uninstall functions?" has been closed by the moderator Duttythroy by request of the original poster. This can be seen in google cache as well as on this screenshot from our pda archive. It has been permanently removed from the forum and can not be restored. This happens often when a thread is closed and doesn't seem to be of much importance to prevent clutter in the forum. To prevent discussions like these in the future I've removed the ability to permanently remove threads from now on.
I have no reason to believe this thread was removed on purpose with malicious intent.
Accusations of keeping a rom from the public:
There have been accusations that a certain member is keeping a source rom from the public by paying people not to distribute it. The person who allegedly got paid to not share this rom does not wish to tell me who did this nor wishes to provide proof for this. As the system shows this user has removed all messages in his PM box there is no way for me to gain access to this information if it ever was in his PM box to begin with. I thus have no reason to believe that a rom is being kept from the public with malicious intent.
About the sharing principle in general:
A lot of rom chefs have complained that keeping a rom from other chefs no matter what the reason is a breach of the sharing principle of this forum and should be punished.
Though we believe that by sharing the community will benefit most it is not a rule, I can not nor do I wish to force people to share. Sometimes there are simply more important issues with a rom that might cause someone not to want to share, think of sources that need protecting or legal issues. I don't think our sharing principle should be enforced with the risk of sources losing their jobs or people getting sued because they shared, this most certainly won't be good for the future of xda-developers.
Best regards,
Flar
p.s. I will leave this thread open for discussion for a while, but do request that you do not post personal attacks here and try to keep the discussion civil.
Flar said:
There has been some discussion and rumor about a ghost thread and someone keeping a rom from the public, I've looked into the situation and by this message would like to respond publicly about it. I hope this will clear up any rumors going around and will return this forum to what it should be, a place to discuss and develop.
The "ghost thread":
The thread with subject "How to cook in a OEM Application (package) with uninstall functions?" has been closed by the moderator Duttythroy by request of the original poster. This can be seen in google cache as well as on this screenshot from our pda archive. It has been permanently removed from the forum and can not be restored. This happens often when a thread is closed and doesn't seem to be of much importance to prevent clutter in the forum. To prevent discussions like these in the future I've removed the ability to permanently remove threads from now on.
I have no reason to believe this thread was removed on purpose with malicious intent.
Accusations of keeping a rom from the public:
There have been accusations that a certain member is keeping a source rom from the public by paying people not to distribute it. The person who allegedly got paid to not share this rom does not wish to tell me who did this nor wishes to provide proof for this. As the system shows this user has removed all messages in his PM box there is no way for me to gain access to this information if it ever was in his PM box to begin with. I thus have no reason to believe that a rom is being kept from the public with malicious intent.
About the sharing principle in general:
A lot of rom chefs have complained that keeping a rom from other chefs no matter what the reason is a breach of the sharing principle of this forum and should be punished.
Though we believe that by sharing the community will benefit most it is not a rule, I can not nor do I wish to force people to share. Sometimes there are simply more important issues with a rom that might cause someone not to want to share, think of sources that need protecting or legal issues. I don't think our sharing principle should be enforced with the risk of sources losing their jobs or people getting sued because they shared, this most certainly won't be good for the future of xda-developers.
Best regards,
Flar
p.s. I will leave this thread open for discussion for a while, but do request that you do not post personal attacks here and try to keep the discussion civil.
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I respect your choice. Good work to all the chefs, mods and admin.
I respect your choice!
Good work to everybody!
You do what you have to do.
Respect!
Thanks Flar for clearing things up.
I can only hope this has now been resolved and harmony returns to xda developers.
I think Flar is right, but for another reason that she didn't mention, I believe that sharing is good for the community, but sharing means to be willing to share. If you force someone to share something, it's more like stealing.
Can we all be friends again now?
Group hug??
The real question now is this:
Is everything going to return to normal in the forum now?
Or did we lost some chefs/mods?
I guess time will tell...
Since there isn't much that can be done and the Admin did whatever he could and posted the investigation results publicly, we should respect his decision and accept the facts on the face value and not on assumptions. I hope things will getback to normal and the chefs would reopen their ROMs for the public, who love and adore their work.
XDA is a wonderful place for HTC device owners due to the extremely talanted developers and chefs, who are anytime better than the ones wotking at Microsoft and HTC.
So I humbly request all the chefs to re-open their ROMs to the loving and dedicated fans and get back the XDA spirit.
Thank you.
Hello
Thanks for the clear answer and hope that's poeple are going down a bit..
Still unclear if the cookers can share the new rom or not... as the Admin didn't find any proof
Anyway hope that it was just a little storm
Long life to XDA
gigaboss said:
I think Flar is right, but for another reason that she didn't mention, I believe that sharing is good for the community, but sharing means to be willing to share. If you force someone to share something, it's more like stealing.
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Exactly.
Personally If I give my word to someone promising not to do something, I will do that, and I expect that also others respect this, and behave coherently with my position.
Clearly as steted in the first post above, when such an extent is reached (like people getting sued or fired) this becomes exponentially more important.
I would like to say that I just joined this community before the thing blew, and as far as I am concerned it seems that things are cooling down, so thanks to the Admins and Moderators for your efforts. (We are civil people, or at least we should behave like it)
Also a thank to all the Chef's, because you can do what I cannot, I appreciate your work, please do not get discouraged and keep it up with the excellent service you provide to the masses here on XDA.
Ciao from Italy.
I am glad there has been progress on the matter.
What happened was sooooooooooo unnecessary and i still believe could have been dealt with better.
I have posted a PM to Flar about how i feel.
XDA is more important than individuals, this must not happen again.
Phew, feel better now
Good speech, but I think everything is the same!
The world is made of corruption, and where it is you can not do anything!
Chef small is nothing, but Big Chef power can not be discussed.
Solution: Leave XDA or lives to it so.
I continue make my roms with love.. Not with money!!!
MaryOne is here to make people happy!!!
Life is beautiful!
Can we have an official answer from dutty about accusations?
lucarp78 said:
Can we have an official answer from dutty about accusations?
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It's up to dutty to decide if he wants to discuss this but i think he should do that when he's ready. I've spoken to him yesterday and he's currently very busy with his personal life so it might take some time.
Best regards,
Flar
lucarp78 said:
Can we have an official answer from dutty about accusations?
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I think he already made his official answer towards rhis matter.
Hopefully we can all resume normal communication now. The rules have been changed so that it won't be possible for mods to permanently erase threads which offers some official traceability if issues arise.
jouh said:
I think he already made his official answer towards rhis matter.
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In all closed threads Dutty have many "lawyers", I think not need. He will surely respond.
jouh said:
I think he already made his official answer towards rhis matter.
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Let him answer and not his lawyers.
At least... with your hand to put in... and with your comment and your decision, this makes sense and let all of users to understand this matter.
Now.. i'm really happy and wish all of your cookers to return to our famous website.
Thanks,
KCJ
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Too many people are trying to take the easy road and post a new thread on a subject or idea, usually asking a question about something that has already been answered instead of doing a simple search!
I've been a member here for a couple years now and haven't needed to post very much because, if you take the time, the information is out there. 99.9% of the time, you aren't the first person to ask a question, have a problem, or hit a wall.
If you're having trouble doing something that was posted in a thread, POST YOUR QUESTION IN THAT THREAD!!
It seems as though there are a lot of newbies who are anxious to root their Inc, which is fine: If you pay attention, read the instructions and most of the thread before you begin, and follow them to a T . Every time I have a problem either rooting or installing a ROM or something else, I am the one who did something wrong.
Some of you are probably new to the Thread concept, which is also fine. It's very frustrating getting used to how they work, and learning the "right" way to do things- but trust me, it's worth it.
Posting a new thread is like standing on a chair in the middle of a crowded room and screaming out a question. If your in the wrong room (i.e. wrong section), people are going to be upset. If the question was already answered by another group (i.e. another forum), people are also going to be upset. If you aren't sure if you should start a new thread, you probably shouldn't.
Take the time and READ THE RULES! Here they are if you don't know where to find them:
New forum rules, please read!
1. Search before posting.
Use one of our search functions before posting, whether you have a question or something new to share, it's very likely someone already asked that question or shared that news.
2. Member conduct.
2.1 Language: XDA is a worldwide community. As a result what is ‘ok’ to say in your part of the world may not be ok in someone else’s part of the world. Please think about who is reading what you write. Keep in mind that what you think of as acceptable use of language may not be acceptable to others. Conversely, while reading member posts, remember that word you find offensive may not be to the writer. Tolerance is a two way street.
2.2 Nudity: XDA is used by people of all ages, including minors. It's not acceptable to post nude/pornographic imagery, which includes exposure of the male or female genitalia or of female breasts.
2.3 Flaming: XDA was founded as a group of people sharing information about certain mobile phones. Sharing does not involve virtual yelling (flaming) it does involve working together to solve problems in an environment of mutual respect and understanding. Losing your temper and flaming another member, or group of members, is not acceptable behavior.
2.4 Personal attacks, racial, political and/or religious discussions: XDA is a discussion forum about certain mobile phones. Mobile phones are not racial, political, religious or personally offensive, therefore none of these types of discussions are permitted on XDA.
2.5 New Members: Treat new members the way you would have liked to have been treated when you were a new member. Provide the new members with guidance, advice and instruction always with respect and courtesy.
2.6 All members are expected to read and adhere to the XDA rules.
3. Post only using a clear subject and message.
You're most likely to receive a helpful answer to your question if you use a short subject title that describes your problem and a message that explains in detail what your problem is and what you've tried to solve it.
4. Use the English language.
We understand that with all the different nationalities not everyone speaks English well, but please try. If you're really unable to post in English use an online translator, You're free to include your original message in your own language below the English translation.
5. Post a message only once.
As a large forum we don't need unnecessary clutter, You're free to edit your message as you like, so if you do not receive an answer revisit your message and see if you can describe your problem better. Not everyone is online at the same time, it might take a while before you receive an answer.
6. Do not post warez.
If a piece of software requires you to pay to use it, either pay or find your cracks and serials somewhere else. We do not accept warez nor do we permit any member to promote or describe ways in which Warez, cracks, serial codes or other means of avoiding payment, can be obtained.
7. Do not spam.
If you wish to advertise a product, contact us we provide ads. But do not post it in the forums, it will be removed and you're likely to receive a ban.
You are however allowed to sell used goods like your own device, parts of your device or accessories for your device in the marketplace forum, please read the rules there before posting. (This rule includes signatures, if you use a signature it will appear in your post)
8. Donations.
We appreciate all donations to xda-developers.com, it keeps our forum online and well maintained. As a user you're allowed to ask for donations in your signature as a thank you for your hard work. However donations up front are not allowed, this forum is about sharing, not about getting paid to do something, that's what your job is for.
9. Don't get us in trouble.
Don't post copyrighted materials or do other things that will obviously lead to legal trouble. If you wouldn't do it on your own homepage, you probably don't want to do it here either. This does not mean we agree with everything the software piracy lobby try to impose on us, it simply means you cannot break any laws here, since we'll end up dealing with legal hassle caused by you. Please use common sense: respect the forum, its users, and those that write great code.
10. Help others if you can.
If you see posts from others where you can help out, please do. This place exists because people are helping each other, and even if you are relatively new to the matter, there's probably already quite a few people newer than you that would benefit from what you've learned. Don't be shy.
11. Don’t post with the intent on selling something.
As an elaboration to rule number 7, don’t use XDA to advertise your product or service. If you are the proprietor of a for-pay product or service, you may use XDA to get feedback, provide beta access, or offer support on the product, but you may not make any posts with the primary intent of selling. This includes posting press releases, announcements, or links to downloads for trial software. The only exception to this is when you’re posting an exclusive release to XDA.
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
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So instead of starting a new thread like "How do I.." or "Where do I" or "Why can't I..." Do a search of the threads, Google it, or even hop on over to PPC Geeks, Trust me- you'll find the answers you're looking for.
BTW - Thanks to Mikey1022 for moderating
+100000000000000000000000
I wish people had to read this before they could post new threads. This forum seems to be worse than most of the other android forums on xda... not sure why.
Everyone who disagrees with this should check out the nexus one forum to get an idea of how lax things are here.
You better watch it. Some people may take offense to this. people also have to be aware when they do make a new thread that it is in the correct section. Too many questions are being posted in Development instead of General. Let's keep the sections on topic so people can find what they came looking for.
I agree, but I can see the other side as well.
The "Root process" thread is up to 108 pages. Sure, searching helps, but you are still poring over pages and pages of forums for hours. I kind of learned that this was the buy-in from my WinMo days, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.
One advantage to sticking to existing threads, however, is that people who are successful will probably post back to that thread, with any variations they used, whereas they are less likely to post to a new thread.
Calibob2001 said:
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
Too many people are trying to take the easy road and post a new thread on a subject or idea, usually asking a question about something that has already been answered instead of doing a simple search!
I've been a member here for a couple years now and haven't needed to post very much because, if you take the time, the information is out there. 99.9% of the time, you aren't the first person to ask a question, have a problem, or hit a wall.
If you're having trouble doing something that was posted in a thread, POST YOUR QUESTION IN THAT THREAD!!
It seems as though there are a lot of newbies who are anxious to root their Inc, which is fine: If you pay attention, read the instructions and most of the thread before you begin, and follow them to a T . Every time I have a problem either rooting or installing a ROM or something else, I am the one who did something wrong.
Some of you are probably new to the Thread concept, which is also fine. It's very frustrating getting used to how they work, and learning the "right" way to do things- but trust me, it's worth it.
Posting a new thread is like standing on a chair in the middle of a crowded room and screaming out a question. If your in the wrong room (i.e. wrong section), people are going to be upset. If the question was already answered by another group (i.e. another forum), people are also going to be upset. If you aren't sure if you should start a new thread, you probably shouldn't.
Take the time and READ THE RULES! Here they are if you don't know where to find them:
So instead of starting a new thread like "How do I.." or "Where do I" or "Why can't I..." Do a search of the threads, Google it, or even hop on over to PPC Geeks, Trust me- you'll find the answers you're looking for.
BTW - Thanks to Mikey1022 for moderating
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How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
Calibob2001 said:
Hopefully this catches the eyes of those who need to read it most...
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You know they won't. The ones who post these repeated topics are the ones who freak out when they're lost, post a topic, and hit refresh all day instead of looking for the answer. The only ones who actually read this are the ones already pissed off about it.
barry1685 said:
How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
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LOL, I didn't even read it. Just scrolled to through the comments
bluetooth_decay said:
I agree, but I can see the other side as well.
The "Root process" thread is up to 108 pages. Sure, searching helps, but you are still poring over pages and pages of forums for hours. I kind of learned that this was the buy-in from my WinMo days, but that doesn't make it less frustrating.
One advantage to sticking to existing threads, however, is that people who are successful will probably post back to that thread, with any variations they used, whereas they are less likely to post to a new thread.
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There are so many pages of topics because of the issue that is being described. There is a very handy function called "search" that, while not perfect, at least narrows results down for you. You can search within a Section, Topic or down to a single thread for key words.
Odds are, if you are on here you know how to navigate the web. If you can't perform a basic search in a topic or thread then please don't try to root your phone or follow any instructions to change, modify or "hack" anything.
As was brought out by [OP], if you WANT to do something that you think will be useful to you, read up on it. If you do run into an issue, search the key word of your issue. Entering "boot loop", "frozen", "Error message 123" will return something to help you find your answer. Odds are, you are not alone and, if you find you are alone, return to the thread where you were following instructions to do whatever it was you want to do and post a reply describing your issues. [OP] or others who are familiar with the process will help. Patience is a must.
barry1685 said:
How much time did you spend writing this? No ones going to pay attention.
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Far too long than I care to admit - My first draft was rather angry and the overtone has calmed quite a bit...
And even if ONE newbie reads it and gleans even a whisper of insight as to how to operate the forums, then I have been 100% successful- even if 1% of those who read it take this to heart, at this point, that's still 2 fewer Threads the moderators have to close down...
Trust me, no matter what you try to do, you cannot stop people from reposting over and over.
Trust me, no matter what forum I'm at, it's the same thing over and over. It ruins it for us that actually read stuff and search for a while before asking, but such is life.
Infact if you'd search you'd see that there are multiple threads of this nature all over every forum...I know I've seen quite a few on XDA alone.
codybear said:
Infact if you'd search you'd see that there are multiple threads of this nature all over every forum...I know I've seen quite a few on XDA alone.
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So are you saying the op didn't take his own advice?
BTW I am glad someone changed the title of this thread as no one is going to respect your opinion when you start off that way.
On a side note I am new to this forum but from my experience thus far it has been very underwhelming. I made one thread and had issues with posters coming off as elitists. I don't know how modding gets done around here but until people can be civil this will always be a secondary place for me to post about Android news and the Droid Incredible.
I expected more from an XDA forum.
Hand76 said:
So are you saying the op didn't take his own advice?
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What he's saying is that there are a lot of people who don't read the Forum rules and post new threads without doing a little research to figure things out for themselves. If you need help figuring things out, that's fine- but don't expect other people to do your leg work for you.
Hand76 said:
On a side note I am new to this forum but from my experience thus far it has been very underwhelming. I made one thread and had issues with posters coming off as elitists. I don't know how modding gets done around here but until people can be civil this will always be a secondary place for me to post about Android news and the Droid Incredible.
I expected more from an XDA forum.
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I looked up your thread, and honestly I found the answer to both of your questions with a very simple Google search- These are the threads that frustrate members most. There is already a thread that addresses everything from unlocking to removing apps and it's HERE, or better yet, you can look HERE for a list of safe apps to remove and how to remove them... This is where your questions should probably be, not in a new thread.
There are a lot of helpful, knowledgeable people here, you just gotta learn to follow the rules...
Calibob2001 said:
and honestly I found the answer to both of your questions with a very simple Google search
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So you suggest doing a google search instead of coming to these forums for an answer?
Calibob2001 said:
There is already a thread that addresses everything from unlocking to removing apps and it's HERE, or better yet, you can look HERE for a list of safe apps to remove and how to remove them... This is where your questions should probably be, not in a new thread.
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The first thread you linked to is a root thread that covers every topic under the sun. So according to you we should just have one thread on this entire forum and no one should post anything outside of it.
The second thread you linked to I posted in and got 1 answer but many other questions were unanswered.
Still you are coming off as a complete elitist and I don't know why this thread is stickied when on most other forums this would have been locked, especially with the condescending way you started things off.
That is just my two cents.
tl;dr
firstly the rules are already out there: dont repost them asking people not to repost
secondly people do search, but you cant expect everyone to get the search terms right all the time and find what they want. also there are a lot of questions that may sound similar but are not. most of the folks on xda are good people who are trying to get answers and are not purposeful spamming douchebags, so stop the whining and dont read threads you dont want to.
The TownHall Meeting has been officially started. Here are the rules of engagement:
Ok, enough joking for now. Here are the true rules of engagement:
1. Posts that are flaming or flame bait are to be deleted, no questions asked.
2. Language to be edited on sight....
3. No banning, No infractions.
4. Moderators will act only as a mediator, so we will not be taking sides with anyone.
Welcome everyone
@everyone,
Please respect the rules above and I can guarantee you that by the end of the day, we will have a much happier and friendlier atmosphere in this place.
Summary of action items
This was a good meeting in General and it has covered all of the things that I had in my agenda. A few action items on our (mods) end:
1. New threads for ROM updates: Rom threads become quasi chaotic after page 100 or so. Since Chefs update most of their work often, I would suggest that chefs open a new thread for each version with a date and version number to distinguish it from the previous one (maybe even a name)
ie [ROM] 12/15/10 - Inchybrid v 1.2 - all is good now
2. Rom Review Thread: In order to minimize the clutter of the usual "what rom is best" questions, we will start a ROM thread where chefs can post a link to their roms on the first few posts and users will be able to leave reviews (not necessarily feedback), but reviews. So, when someone comes asking for the best rom, that person can be directed there.
3. Wiki update and guides (sticky): These need to be heavily updated, but will certainly be a useful tool to help people with questions.
4. Location / shape of the Report button: I will talk to the other admins and see what can be done about this one.
5. Preventing non-devs from making new threads in Dev: We are currently discussing a system for this. We will keep you posted if and when we reach a conclusion.
6. Off Topic Lounge: There will be a thread in General for you guys to blow off steam. Nothing fancy, but you can post there without having to open a new thread in OT general
Now, onto the action items results and requests from us (mods)
1. Further flaming for questions will not be tolerated. I gathered from this meeting that everyone agrees on a stance that people need not be flamed for asking anything. If there are questions in the wrong areas or simply don't feel like answering, refrain from posting and report it to us. We will move it to Q&A or General depending on the question. Building on this point, if anyone is caught flaming someone who posted in the correct section, that person will be given a vacation.
2. Rule 12 (aka Kanging): Rom chefs (no matter if they are themers or zip wizards), if they are using someone else's efforts as a base for their rom, they are to abide by Rule 12 by asking permission and posting the due credit in the opening post. Kanging will not be tolerated.
3. Donations: This was barely brushed but I feel that we reached an understanding rather quickly on this one. Chefs shall not ask for Donations to release early work.
4. Posting any kind of flaming will not be tolerated. If you feel that a post shouldn't be there, please let us know and we will take care of that.
I think this pretty much summed everything up. If I missed something, please let me know. I expect everyone to adhere to codes of conduct in this site. Thanks to all for attending.
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
lralexl said:
I think the problems in the Development forums stem from a general misconception of what it means to be a "developer" and how one earns that title. Often I will hear people flame people like Team Whiskey or Master as mere "re-skinners", because the main(not all) thing that is in their changelog is mere aesthetic changes. I think the mods should post clearly that anything that involves changing the rom should be considered a type of development, even if only graphical development. This would dissolve any type of hate towards people that reskin or release graphical modifications to already existing roms.(IMHO)
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Thanks for starting things off...
So, what you are saying is that a lot of the flaming occurs due to skinners being deemed as kangers. Am I getting this right?
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
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Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
12. Using the work of others.
If you are developing something that is based on the work of another Member, you MUST first seek their permission, and you must give credit to the member whose work you used. If a dispute occurs about who developed / created a piece of work, first try to settle the matter by private message and NOT in open forum. If this fails then you may contact a moderator with clear evidence that the work was created by you.
Convincing evidence will result in copied work being removed. If there is no clear evidence you created the work then in the spirit of sharing all work will remain posted on the forums.
These rules apply to all software posted on XDA unless that software comes with a license that waives these rules.
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Click to collapse
In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev. It looks like the biggest problem is either a misunderstanding about this rule or lack of knowledge about its existence by both accusing party and "guilty/innocent" party. As a general rule of thumb, if you are making a rom that is based on someone else's work:
* Ask for permission
* Give credit where its due
Simple as that.
Interesting point...
From my experience on hero, people tend to post a theme pack for a ROM. For example, a few regular users port the same few themes into each new ROM I make, and release an add-on patch for it.
They don't go and release it as a separate ROM, but if they did, I have no doubt they would ask me about it first, and I would say sure, but with the caveat that we don't want it to happen too often... What would people think if we had one ROM that is tweaked theme-wise a few times and re-posted as separate ROMs?
There's no "right" answer, but provided people ask the original developers, and give credit per rule 12, then there is no issue with the rules there, so users would be allowed to.
Whether or not it is a "ROM" is up to individual perspectives then.
egzthunder1 said:
Fair enough, let me bring forth the rule that addresses this issue "Using the work of others"
In essence skinning is ok so as long as the member seeks permission from the original dev.
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I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
lralexl said:
I don't even think its a permission issue really. I've just seen in a few threads people calling a skinner a developer, and then you'll have a flamefest erupt of people saying that skinning or winzipping isn't developing. I think this leads everyone more away from the truth that it's all contributions to the community and should be treated as such.
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Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
One (implied) rule of thumb is that if the "dev" in question cannot support their release, you are more than likely dealing with a themer or a "zip wizard" and as such, you are probably better off trying to find the source of the rom and apply the theme/fix as a separate add-on.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
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It may be a bit of added work, but the Rom review thread is not a bad idea. Just keep it clean from clutter and you have a very good tool to prevent new threads of "What is the best rom?" kind from erupting... I like that!
When it comes from flaming, some people will just put out flame bait for the hell of it. What I need, or at least I would like to see, is for everyone to stick to code of conduct and either ignore it, report it, or else, just not add to the fire.
First, we do recognize that we have a problem. We know this because 1) developers are leaving and forming their own sites because they don't like some of the things going on here. And 2) newer people are afraid to post here. Instead, they go to other forums and ask questions and state that they are afraid to post here. Both of these are big problems for the health of the site.
So, we look at the root causes. Most of them stem from 1) a lack of courtesy or 2) a lack of proper conduct. But I think the problems start with:
1. The Samsung Vibrant's stock software is not up to par due to some poor performing components, such as the GPS.
2. Samsung and T-Mobile have failed to communicate with their community.
3. Many people have come to sites like XDA for help.
What this means is that we have a lot of people in the Development forum who really aren't developers. But, they are here because they want help making their Vibrants perform better. That's not an excuse. I'm just saying that we probably have a lot of people in the Developer section who probably should be in QA or General section.
I think we would do well to:
1. Create a NooB forum, or emphasize the General forum as the place to be.
2. Post all new released ROMs in its own forum (not General, but "ROMS" or "Releases") That way people can go there for ROMS and for SUPPORT.
3. I would hope that this would enable the development forum to get back to being one were developers (or people who are interested in developing) could hang out.
Lastly, there are just some people who are like to cause trouble or are overly sensitive. I'm not sure what to do with them. But if they can't play nice, probably the first thing is to "parent" them and see if they can play nice. If that doesn't work, then it is time for a "timeout", or a temporary or permanent ban.
Lastly, while I appreciate the TownHall meeting, let's not lose site of the good things happening here. I would say that the majority of people are following the rules and making meaningful contributions. But if just 10% of the people do bad things, it colors the entire community.
The Vibrant subforums have seemed to be more Wild West than anything. I feel there should be a better mod presence. Don't get me wrong, I know exactly how difficult it is to do all the moderating, especially given how much of it is behind the scenes, but I feel that there is still some regulation lacking. We need to see more people get warned within threads that get out of hand, and frankly, some banning might get the message across that XDA is going to stop taking this crap from people. This board has gotten ridiculous w/ the flaming and incessant bs. Moderation can only go so much, since it's really up to the posting base to change their ways and be more respectful towards one another in order to truly make a long-term difference, but in the short-term we need some better, more aggresive moderation since changing peoples' posting habits will not be a quick thing to happen.
Proud to be a noob
I think there does seem to be a general consensus around us "noobs" about our failure to use the "search" function in a thread that has over 600 + pages of posts. God knows I would love to just flash a ROM and read basic information or FAQ's from the developer (the one individual who SHOULD know more about their own product than anyone) if I have questions, but when you have over 200 posts about how much others love/hate the ROM/developer or personal rants or recommendations/requests for the ROM they have had no part in developing, it does make it difficult to filter out the answer to the force close issue I am experiencing (for example). Then the flame wars begin! How DARE I ask that question since it was answered previously 42 pages back with a link to another developers thread, posted on page 418 of their 700 page manifesto...you get the hint. Finding basic answers to questions is challenging at best, and most newcomers end up getting ridiculed to the point of not wanting to have any further part, or end up flaming right back. Newsflash : just because you have flashed every possible combination of ROM/kernel/modem, does in no way make you an expert. Leave that to the people that make the ROM. Replies should be streamlined to relevant information allowed only, or force a PM if you want to discuss something irrelevant or bash a newcomer if it makes you feel better.
Keslynn said:
As far as the flaming issue goes, I think that people are too quick to respond to bait. If a post is flamebait, I wish people would just ignore it. I think that would help a lot. Maybe along with thanking there could be a voting system for unhelpful posts? I don't know.
On a different note, I think it would be useful to have a review thread for every ROM in the General forum. Constructive reviews only. This would help keep Development threads for bugfixing and dev issues instead of 8 million "what's battery life like?" User screenshots, battery life comments, general performance commentary, etc could all be in the review thread. If someone posts "omg this rom rulez" or "it sucks" they could be given a canned response to give an actual constructive review in that review thread. Just a suggestion. Thanks.
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I was think about that the other day...that's a good idea and that way the develoment forum will be kept clean.
lralexl said:
I'm sure there are other personal issues, but I have seen much flaming on reskinning.
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Are you able to comment on the personal issues or are you simply surmising?
Thanks
WB
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, I think that we are getting closer to the heart of the matter. Conceptions of what people's role is should not be grounds for calling someone out or flaming them. The whole thing actually gets simpler from this point on.
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To expand on this point, I've noticed people flaming over pretty much any definition. Someone posts that they're disappointed by GPS performance or screen burn in, and they get an argument over what constitutes a "feature" of the phone and told that their concern is not important. People forget that what might not be important to them may be a dealbreaker for someone else.
egzthunder1 said:
Ok, since we are off to a slow start, there are a few topics that I would like to address today. The biggest one, in my book anyways, is forum conduct.
We have had numerous complains coming from the Vibrant fora from newcomers (n00bs) complaining that they cannot even dare ask anything due to fear of being flamed to smithereens. Anyone care to elaborate on this?
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Since that's where I spend most of my time I can say for certain that this is true. I think there's a lot of younger kids in the vibrant forum who like picking fights and just generally being less than friendly. It seems like the answer to most questions asked is go search for it yourself. The information is readily available most of the time if theyd just look, but there's no reason to be rude about it.
With that said, I think since the thanks button has been added its made for a better atmosphere--so far. Definitely a welcome addition that will hopefully keep things civil.
lets clear this up now.
the dispute between several developers and former developers that's been happening over the last few weeks will stay OFF the forum from now on.
i've dealt very lightly over this so far but if ANYONE continues to flame or make the situation worse i won't be giving warnings. infractions can lead to bans. i will use them.
lets cool down, start being adults and keep on topic.
lets be clear, the moderator team are here to enforce the rules of the forum and keep things running smooth. We've no interest in taking sides, we'll warn and infract anyone who breaks them.
regards
Chris
Developers on XDA nowadays face more and more hate just cause they are not the favourite dev of someone, or cause someone thinks they did copy something. Sometimes people even make death threats against developers!
Should XDA do something about that, like for example filter obtrusive, insulting content in posts?
If you want to change something please sign the change.org petition here: https://www.change.org/p/xda-developers-com-make-something-about-the-hate-towards-devs-on-xda
BTW: I say this not just like that but I actually am a victim of this myself! See the pic in the petition!
XDA has Moderators to handle posts that disrespect others, or break any of the site rules. It takes reports to alert us though, we can't monitor every thread.
Also, this kind of drama creating thread is not going to help anything and will only work against your objective.
So please, simply report posts that break rules and Moderators will handle it.
And note, it definitely takes a thick skin to interact with others on the internet, developers especially. You can't let every negative post get you down, just ignore them. Does it matter what a stranger thinks? Not to me.
I am going to close this now. This kind of thing will end badly for everyone and serves no purpose.
Cheers,
Darth
Forum Moderator