If you google android gpu acceleration, you'll see numerous threads on other sites of people asking for it and others saying there hardware is smooth enough.
I don't want to discuss the merit of gpu acceleration as I think it's a given. What I'd like to know is a list of apps that do. But also, if these apps can, why isn't it utilized system-wide? Other threads mentioned older hardware could only have one opengl layer, so if your launcher was gpu accelerated, then a game wouldn't launch. I doubt this is the issue now with more recent hardware.
Is there any side project trying to add this to say cyanogen?
Anyway, I know launcher pro is accelerated. The scrolling through applications is like night and day with other launchers. Also the latest Opera is accelerated. It seems like the built-in gallery app is accelerated. I'm not sure about any of the pdf viewers. ezpdf seems the smoothest, but again, it might be just more optimized over other pdf readers.
So is there a list of apps that utilize the gpu? (besides games obviously)
I'm not sure if it's a video driver issue from device to device, but if that's so, how can a small app like launcher pro work accelerated on numerous devices?
sark666 said:
But also, if these apps can, why isn't it utilized system-wide?
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Because a lot of Android phones can't take it.
Other threads mentioned older hardware could only have one opengl layer, so if your launcher was gpu accelerated, then a game wouldn't launch. I doubt this is the issue now with more recent hardware.
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Yeah, but Android's target is a huge range of hardware- some very crappy. Read up on Android's "fragmentation problem."
Is there any side project trying to add this to say cyanogen?
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A composite based GUI is a HUGE project. It is WAY beyond the scope of this community. It is what delayed Windows Vista for so long, and was a huge reason why many people didn't like Vista (as hardware around its launch couldn't handle the interface).
It took the Linux desktop over three years to add a decent composite GUI, and that was with MANY large companies working on it.
Composite based GUIs are VERY VERY difficult to get right. The only reason Apple has it right is from the get go that was the best part of OSX. Apple's engineers somehow got its composite GUI (called Quartz) on old low-MHz PowerPC machines, and that miracle of technology has not been duplicated anywhere else. In fact, that was the competitive advantage that Apple took with it to the phone market once phones were as powerful as old PowerPC machines.
Other OS's that use a GPU accelerated GUI just have to have very strict minimums for hardware. For example, look at the minimums for Window's phones. Any one of those would be high-end in the Android market.
I'm not sure if it's a video driver issue from device to device, but if that's so, how can a small app like launcher pro work accelerated on numerous devices?
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Run Launcher Pro on an older Android device like a Droid 1 and you would be singing a different tune as to how smooth it is. The fact of the matter is that the Android eco-system isn't ready yet....
Hmm, compiz made huge improvements quite rapidly so I don't know about 3 years to get it right. The benefits were immediate; maybe refinements as it went along.
Regardless if it is huge undertaking, google has to address this. I've read articles where they say it's more garbage collecting vs an accelerated gui. Here's a brief but good article on it: http://www.satine.org/archives/2011/01/01/the-care-and-feeding-of-the-android-gpu/
And linux is a good example, the initial beginnings of compiz were a very small group of developers and features were being added very rapidly.
It turns a lot of people off android when they see a sluggish OS, or the appearance of a sluggish OS.
At any rate, my question still stands. you mention older devices needed to being supported. Then how does an app like launcher pro do it? I'm sure it doesn't have custom drivers for all the various gpu's out there? Same with Opera.
And I'd still like a list of (if there is one) of gpu accelerated apps. If the OS doesn't have it, then it would be nice to have it at the app level. Although I see that causing more headaches down the road instead of the OS doing it.
Anyway, google doesn't sound like they are taking this issue seriously. Or dismissing it as not necessary, but I think that's a mistake. On a traditional desktop OS, it's a nice to have but not really necessary, as most things are static. But given the size of the these devices, menus/icons etc are usually moved about cascade and expand etc. Items are dragged and moved etc. All this calls for an interface that maintains a high fps or otherwise it gives the perception of feeling laggy.
Trust me...rewriting Android to do automatic compositing is a huge undertaking. This would be very difficult to do while maintaining compatibility which existing applications. Honeycomb has compositing but it isn't enabled in applications by default because it can break applications with custom drawing. I don't see any reason for us to attempt to implement composting when its already done about as well as anyone can do it in Honeycomb.
sark666 said:
Hmm, compiz made huge improvements quite rapidly so I don't know about 3 years to get it right. The benefits were immediate; maybe refinements as it went along.
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GPU GUI acceleration on the Linux desktop didn't start with Compiz. GPU GUI acceleration started in 2004 when Keith Packard added the composite patch to Xorg. David Reveman began working on XGL and Compiz around that time, and didn't release a workable beta version until 2006.
Yet that beta version relied on XGL, which was basically running the Linux desktop like you would a video game. It wasn't until AIGLX became stabilized in open source and closed source drivers in 2007 that GPU GUI acceleration on the Linux desktop was finished (I am huge Xorg junkie, that is why I know these random facts).
Regardless if it is huge undertaking, google has to address this. I've read articles where they say it's more garbage collecting vs an accelerated gui.
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From what I have heard, Honeycomb supposedly has a GPU accelerated GUI. But we don't know till we can see the code.
It turns a lot of people off android when they see a sluggish OS, or the appearance of a sluggish OS.
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I would say that the sluggishness is only obvious next to iOS- other mobile OSes also lack such abilities. Compared to iOS Android has mostly targeted the lower-end user segment where quality of experience is less important than raw price (hence the many underpowered Android phones).
Eventually due to attrition the baseline will increase in power and old phones will be cut off for new features such as this. I have already heard that Gingerbread runs terrible on a Droid 1, which is barely a two year old phone.
Then how does an app like launcher pro do it?
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Same way games do it- they just run like crap on older phones. Google can't afford to take that approach with the entire OS.
And I'd still like a list of (if there is one) of gpu accelerated apps. If the OS doesn't have it, then it would be nice to have it at the app level.
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Me too.
Anyway, google doesn't sound like they are taking this issue seriously.
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I think that is an accurate assessment. I think Google believes that in time the hardware itself wil cover this inadequacy- it matters less on dual core phones. Its all those poor people that bought early Android phones that have had to suffer the most...
I'm sure it's not trivial, but again standalone apps seemed to have done it. I know OS wide is another issue. But really, honeycomb is really late when it comes to this. It really should have been a 2.x feature. I"m the exact opposite of an apple fan boy, but the first iphone in 2007 had this. That set the bar right there. What 4 years later and google is almost on it? And yes iphone is a fixed device, but still. An abstraction layer should have been worked on so if a device has a gpu it's used, otherwise fallback to software.
And on a side note, It would still be nice to know apps that do implement this now.
sark666 said:
An abstraction layer should have been worked on so if a device has a gpu it's used, otherwise fallback to software.
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I am a huge fan of this stuff (I actually had a blog about composite back in the day) and I can tell you after hacking on many devices and OSes, only ONCE have I seen a decent software-based compositor. OSX. That is it, in the whole world.
In fact, Apple's entire "magic" empire of devices is built on that unique competitive advantage. Part of what has made it work is that composite was there from day one- unlike a Linux, Windows or Android, OSX/iOS has ALWAYS had composite so applications had to work with it.
And it wasn't a painless process. Early OSX versions (until Tiger I think) all had major composite bugs (to the point I am good at spotting them). Part of Apple's advantage is that initially the OSX base was so small that it didn't matter what broke and what didn't.
So essentially it is not a 4 year gap, but is more like a 10 year advantage. All those old PowerPC Mac users paid out the nose to make modern Apple phones the pleasant experience they are.
To me the saving grace of Android is that Google allows developers to replace major parts. So maybe the entire OS will never have real GPU acceleration, but Google doesn't stop the Operas and Launcher Pros of the world to replace essential functions with apps that CAN leverage that ability. That way different parts of the OS get fixed up by those who are best at that part, and those with weaker hardware can do without.
So yeah, a list would be nice.
Well even Windows XP seems to dust Android's best. For example, browsing these very forums on my pathetic netbook is smooth but on NC it is extremely slow unless Opera Mobile is used. Even Honeycomb's browser is slow scrolling these forums. It is pretty mind blowing that in 2011 there would be 2D GUI inadequacies like this.
But the reason is as has been said: there are phones with really poor GPUs running Android. So Google basically set the bar too low in order to probably lower the cost to develop an Android device and now they don't want to break compatibility. Although I don't see why 3.0 couldn't have been more ambitious.
Not Quite A List of Android GPU Apps
GPU Acceleration will be system wide when Ice Cream Sandwich is released. I stumbled upon this thread hoping to find specific apps. I am of the Nvidia Bootcamp, so that influenced me to get a Droid X2. There are some killer apps that work perfect with GPU acceleration. I am rather surprised to find that this thread became a history lesson, much which I knew and Wikipedia could tell me.
I am using a Movie Player on Android called MX Video Player (FREE and Free Codec Download Required). It works extremely well. This app is an excellent example of quality software taking advantage of GPU acceleration, before a system wide implementation. I doubt "MX" will get better when ICS is here.
As for CyanogenMod none that I know of other than the ICS port they are cooking up. Has to do with ICS SDK API 14, that is the framework for it?
When I find more I will add to the list here, that is if I dont forget.
Oh and that snyde XP comment.... Let me know how the android gui and os is when it has had ten years in the limelight, with patches and bug fixes!
hi,
i am kind of addicted about the GPU performances of the mobile devices because i believe the CPU tech is already way ahead of todays needings for mobile worlds.. and i need your opinons and even -if you wouldn't mind spending some time- your tests to decide..
novadays i am planning to buy galaxy note, it catches my eyes with its beautiful (not huge, but georgeus) screen even though it has black rendering issues
anyway the thing is the most beautiful apps and games comes from the apple side and the apple devices has good GPUs with average CPUs.. this is also excatly what a good movie in mp4 format needs.. so this is why i believe GPU has a superior roleplay than a CPU novadays devices..
in the raw power/resolution comparison ipad 2 is first with its PowerVR 543MP2/(1024x768)
i guess SGS3 is the 2nd one with OCed mali-400/(1280x720)
so lets create chart to compare them: take the GL benchmark egypt offscreen results and divide them with their resolutions and multiple the results with 100000 (since the result will be very small) i guess this should tell us about the gameplaying capibilities of a device (correct me if i am wrong)
according to this;
the ipad2 scores; 90x100000/1024x768= 11,444 points
the new ipad scores; 136x100000/2048x1536=4,323
SGS3 scores; 102x100000/1280x720= 11,067
GNote scores; 50x100000/1280x720= 4,882 (50 is what i get from glbenchmark web site, i did not run the test myself)
so my questions are; will we get 74,9 FPS(simply (50 FPS X 400Mhz/267Mhz) points on GL benchmark egypt offscreen by simply overclocking the GPU to 400 Mhz from 267Mhz (i guess this is the stock clock) just like SGS3 and why are we not getting 102 like it? is this the Nm making the difference or the drivers? and can someone with OCed GPU run the test and tell the results?
thanks..
Its all about:
-quality of the SoC (some can handle heavy stress better)
-drivers!
-kernel implementation
...and to a much lesser point, any optimizations/problems affected by high-level data, example the ROM.
Unfortunately, gpu doesn't work the way you think.
Usually benchmark score points show innovation in the gpu performance proceeding in a "Exponential Slope" whereas they're actually increasing in a more "Plateau" slope.
In fact, almost all improvements are software based.
A Exynos 3110 (1st-gen SGX540) can in practice perform as well as the gpu in the SGS3 or EVEN BETTER, depending on its setup.
This is a similar case to the PS3 vs 360. The PS3 has a much much more powerful gpu, however Xbox games look just as well as PS3 games, and even better, because they are encoded in DirectX format compared to SONY's proprietary SDK solution. Then again there is the RAM issue in both consoles
60 frame per second cap
Some things to consider in your graphics comparisons:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1169188
http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/32841/is-it-possible-to-get-above-30-fps-on-an-ios-devic.html
This quote explains it best:
Frankly, your opinion is uneducated. The screen of the Galaxy S II has a refresh rate of 60 Hertz, meaning the screen physically cannot display any material higher than 60 frames per second. If you uncap the software frame rate, then the CPU and GPU of the phone will work harder to render as much material as possible - let's say in this case, we have something that has 80 frames to display in a single second. Yet since the screen cannot display 80 frames per second, 20 of those frames will never be shown, and the resulting movement could even suffer from tearing because of the mismatched refresh rate and frame rate. In order to fix tearing, a technique called vertical sync is employed, which would cut frame rates to 60fps in order to eliminate the extra frames which cause tearing.
So, if we remove the frame rate cap on Samsung's version of Android, then what do we accomplish? We increase the workload on the phone's processors, increasing heat output and decreasing battery life. Rendering above 60fps will generate frames which are never shown, and will introduce visual glitches if vertical sync is not used; vertical sync, in turn, would cap the frame rate to 60fps once again. I hope this post has been helpful.
Hi guys,
I'm looking at getting a replacement tablet for the TF700 which was going to be, no questions asked, the TF701. HOWEVER...
I have read that the Samsung Note 10.1 2014 edition spanks the TF701 a little on specs. Same screen, 3GB RAM, Exynos Processor Octa Core etc. etc. About the same price too.
I have to admit, I don't use the keyboard dock as much as I thought I would but do really like it. I would probably get the keyboard dock for the Samsung if I ended up with that instead. No extra battery though
The Samsung, so far, on benchmarking seems to beat the TF701 hands down although I've seen some reports of stuttering.
I guess the Asus is more 'vanilla' than Samsung with its Touchwiz interface. I have had an S2, S3 and now S4 so know how it is
Any opinions before I splash the cash and may be regret it? Will Sbdags be developing for the TF701? My bet is yes as he's ordered one
Thanks for any opinions or flaming hehe
Owen.
Owendavies said:
Hi guys,
I'm looking at getting a replacement tablet for the TF700 which was going to be, no questions asked, the TF701. HOWEVER...
I have read that the Samsung Note 10.1 2014 edition spanks the TF701 a little on specs. Same screen, 3GB RAM, Exynos Processor Octa Core etc. etc. About the same price too.
I have to admit, I don't use the keyboard dock as much as I thought I would but do really like it. I would probably get the keyboard dock for the Samsung if I ended up with that instead. No extra battery though
The Samsung, so far, on benchmarking seems to beat the TF701 hands down although I've seen some reports of stuttering.
I guess the Asus is more 'vanilla' than Samsung with its Touchwiz interface. I have had an S2, S3 and now S4 so know how it is
Any opinions before I splash the cash and may be regret it? Will Sbdags be developing for the TF701? My bet is yes as he's ordered one
Thanks for any opinions or flaming hehe
Owen.
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I don't personally like the Samsung. Chap at work brought it in and it looks a bit dated and I just don't like the look. Performance is good but the TF701 is about the same as far as I can see in benchmarks. I haven't see anything suggesting a spanking. The only thing it has going for it is the S-Pen.
But yes as soon as we can get a working TWRP I will be stripping down the Asus ROM and rebuilding a version of CROMi for the TF701T. Hopefully mine arrives tomorrow or Saturday
sbdags said:
I don't personally like the Samsung. Chap at work brought it in and it looks a bit dated and I just don't like the look. Performance is good but the TF701 is about the same as far as I can see in benchmarks. I haven't see anything suggesting a spanking. The only thing it has going for it is the S-Pen.
But yes as soon as we can get a working TWRP I will be stripping down the Asus ROM and rebuilding a version of CROMi for the TF701T. Hopefully mine arrives tomorrow or Saturday
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Nice, I will be there for testing if needed.
I got the Samsung before my Asus was released. I couldn't stand it. I don't care for the stylus and to much bloatware. Like a poster above said, a bit dated as well. The Asus looks like a Maserati compared to the clunker. Lastly, the screen is MUCH sharper on the Asus as well. They use a better screen. Also love the 4K compatability using our native resolution. So yeah, definitely a no brainer on the return.
Oh, another thing to factor, is the highway robbery that Samsung gets away with, from their outrageous selling price..
Sent from my New Asus Transformer Pad TF701T using Tapatalk HD
xRevilatioNx said:
I got the Samsung before my Asus was released. I couldn't stand it. I don't care for the stylus and to much bloatware. Like a poster above said, a bit dated as well. The Asus looks like a Maserati compared to the clunker. Lastly, the screen is MUCH sharper on the Asus as well. They use a better screen. Also love the 4K compatability using our native resolution. So yeah, definitely a no brainer on the return.
Oh, another thing to factor, is the highway robbery that Samsung gets away with, from their outrageous selling price..
Sent from my New Asus Transformer Pad TF701T using Tapatalk HD
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Thanks for the info guys. Reading some recent reviews of both tablets, the Samsung is actually winning me over! Although the scare of 'fake' bench marking is a bit off putting to say the least. I have a Galaxy S4 so used to the bloatware (especially since 4.3 was released!) just wanted a tablet that performed and looked good at the same time.
Lots of problems with the hardware and probably software with the Asus. Even Sbdags says he's probably not getting the TF701t now!
Dang, what to do...
My biggest issue with the note is them using a pentile screen. I could live with the bloat and even the odd fake stitched back.
note 10.1 is WRGB not pentitle. TF701 not bad. But if you want use cook room. Must care about it. Asus doesn't have any tool to install direct from PC like Odin of samsung. If you have any broplem with recovery on TF701 that mean you'll never recovery it. My tf300T have bricked after update 4.1 and try to root. Not only me but also many people have same problem. With samsung easy to root and easy recovery.
Had the Samsung and returned it. Because of LAG LAG LAG! Read the threads! And the bogus benchmarks don't help their cause...
Sent from my New Asus Transformer Pad TF701T using Tapatalk HD
Ok OP your asking in the TF701T thread. Things like LAG haha "read the threads". Hmm lets just find one " it definitely has more lag than it should but I don't think it's as bad as you here are making it out to be." Shall I go on? So understand ANY tablet can have lag. Who in the world would bring up "bogus benchmarks" on tablets? hehe.. this is to easy to show. Search google.
I love the "dated" yeah the Note is running 4.3 and its so easy to get rid of the apps if you dont want them. Has two speakers not one, has a shorter battery life then the TF701. Cant run Tegra made games "yawn".
Never just take some person or reviews word. You get an idea but buy it for your self and test it. Look in to support on both. You will find Asus does not have good support at all. Search their Video cards, mother boards, read in Newegg or Amazon blah blah blah. Are you going to root? Asus is NOT the one for you.
There is one poster here that seems for some odd reason has to almost post in every thread on how perfect the Asus is. hehe. So SEARCH reviews else where not just here.
I think its a great tablet but has one speaker (talk about dated) and seems like this new TF701 is started to be like the TF700. Both seem to be slow in updates.
chanhny said:
note 10.1 is WRGB not pentitle. TF701 not bad. But if you want use cook room. Must care about it. Asus doesn't have any tool to install direct from PC like Odin of samsung. If you have any broplem with recovery on TF701 that mean you'll never recovery it. My tf300T have bricked after update 4.1 and try to root. Not only me but also many people have same problem. With samsung easy to root and easy recovery.
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Pentile is a Samsung patented style of sub pixel layouts this include rgbw, it still lowers the effective ppi.
phage80 said:
Pentile is a Samsung patented style of sub pixel layouts this include rgbw, it still lowers the effective ppi.
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Pentile Is only on Samsung oleds Screens. The note 10.1 uses lcd technology with no sub pixel.
Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk
Not true, Pentile has been used in OLED, LCD and even their plasma displays.
phage80 said:
Not true, Pentile has been used in OLED, LCD and even their plasma displays.
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I don't notice any lag on my Note 10.1 2014. I am on the latest update from Samsung. It is on Android 4.3 and they had 3 updates already. The screen is beautiful and text is very sharp.
I have both tablets and had to choose between them. For me, the Note wins...by a lot.
The supposed lag that a couple people have mentioned with the Note seems bogus to me. Both tablets are fast and only show lag in the same, rare areas. The TouchWiz launcher is surely more susceptible to lag than the Asus launcher, but only in a couple areas. If you use a different launcher, which I'm guessing most people reading XDA do, than both devices feel virtually identical in normal use. They both take 2 seconds to recognize an orientation change. They both take 2 seconds to show you the screen when you wake it up. They both have sub-30fps for the animation when a graphically-intensive app minimizes/maximizes (goes in to and comes out of standby, whatever you wanna call it).
So the SoC's are pretty close in performance...that is until you fire up some 3D games. Basically the Tegra4 just can't drive the WQXGA resolution in lots (most?) 3D games, at least not YET. Maybe some magic improvement will be made in the near future, but for now it's just not very good at all. And you gotta love how devs don't give you graphic settings in most games (probably because they are all iOS ports). Several games I want to play are unable to pull 30 fps on the TF701. I heard that there is an app that will force games to specific resolutions, so that could help but obviously we want to play at the native res.
I made a post here with screenshots of the framerates on my Note, asking for rooted TF701 users to post screenshots from theirs: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=47390158&postcount=9
Here's a little comparison I made earlier:
TF701 advantages over the Note 10.1:
Price - $150 cheaper for 32GB model
Keyboard dock - The transformer dock is excellent with next-to-nothing comparable on other tablets. However, quality of the new dock is lacking and was apparently pulled from amazon.com, maybe to address the quality control (rumor?).
Aluminum shell - If you prefer metal over plastic, this is a good thing. It feels nicer than the hard plastic of the Note.
Form-factor - Though the design is dated, I actually prefer the bigger bezel and tapered edges compared to the Note's small bezel and iPad1/GalaxyS4-style squared edges. The TF701 feels easier to hold even though it's heavier.
Easy-to-unlock bootloader - The Note 10.1 is rootable but I haven't looked into it yet. Meanwhile, Asus gives you the bootloader unlocking tool, so it's easy as long as you don't mind voiding your warranty. Not really sure if this is such a great advantage honestly.
Better support from XDA - Apparently the Exynos chips are hard to work with and get less attention here on XDA, so the Tegra4 based TF701 should see more community support.
Note 10.1 advantages over TF701:
Faster 3D graphics - The TF701 is just a hair too slow for most of the games (under 25 fps in many games) I tried, while the Note 10.1 is consistently faster and is just fast enough for most of the games I tried (consistently over or around 30 fps).
Better Speakers - Stereo speakers > mono speaker. Also, edge-mounted > rear-mounted.
IR blaster - Handy for controlling home theater devices and other stuff.
Smaller & lighter - 45g lighter is less than 10%, but it's still noticeable. The short-edge bezels are about half the width of the TF701's, while the long-edge bezels are about 2/3rds the width.
Screen - It's brighter. Despite gsmarena claiming 755 nits from the TF701 (ASUS Transformer Pad TF701T review: Full throttle - GSMArena.com), it is not quite as bright as the Note 10.1. With the TF701 using "outdoor mode" and set to 50% brightness, and the Note set to 50% brightness, the Note is WAY brighter, not like that matters or is telling us anything about the max brightness. The TF701 is just really dim at 50% and below for whatever reason even with outdoor mode on, but that's just the scale Asus decided on. With both set to 100% with no power saving, the difference is not much, but the Note is still brighter (and neither one is anywhere near 755 nits).
The contrast levels are clearly better on the Note, mostly due to darker black levels and more saturation. Colors are better on the Note, too. The colors on the TF701 are washed-out until you set it to VIVID color, then they are more saturated but not very accurate (reds look pale still and seem to bleed). On auto-brightness, the TF701 jumps around abruptly in brightness, which wouldn't bother me except it jumps too much at-a-time to where it's distracting and annnoying. Meanwhile, the Note has a smooth, gradual brightness change to it like most devices I've used.
Gorilla Glass 3 in the Note, no one seems sure of what the Asus uses, maybe GG2?
Not sure about reflectiveness. They both seem pretty dang reflective to me. Does gorilla glass 3 offer any anti-reflectiveness?
RAM - 3GB vs 2GB
Camera - The Note snaps better pics than the TF701 in my fluorescently-lit office setting. I didn't take them outside to test. The TF701 pics were really grainy and smudgey, while the Note pics were not nearly as grainy and not smudgey at all, though still weren't that great. I was using default settings on each tablet, so auto-everything. The Note also takes pics faster when using burst. Plus it has a flash and 8MP versus no flash and 5MP. The MP don't really matter here since the 5MP pics (actually 4MP when doing 16:10) fit the tablet screen perfectly (I think), so 5MP is enough for me.
Haptic feedback - TF701 has none, just like iPad. I miss it when typing especially, but also when gaming.
MicroUSB vs proprietary - I know a microUSB port wouldn't really work for the TF701 because of the docking needs, but they could have put a microUSB port elsewhere on the tablet for convenience. The Note has moved away from the proprietary port in favor of microUSB, which makes it more convenient to charge or transfer files since I have a dozen microUSB cables and chargers placed strategically around the house and in backpacks and whatnot.
S-Pen - Some find this to be a gimmick, but it can be pretty useful. It gives me a good excuse to bring it to meetings for taking notes. Useful if you can't or don't want to touch the screen, like when eating, but you need to interact with the device.
Multi-window - I know the Asus has some floating widgets that kind of act like multi-window, but it's not quite as useful. Granted, I might never utilize multi-window, but maybe I will. This is kind of a gimmicky feature, but probably works well since it has 3GB of RAM to play with.
Availability - The TF701 suddenly showed up on newegg.com and bestbuy.com on Monday this week. Best Buy isn't going to carry any TF701's in-store. Pretty sure Target and other box-stores won't carry it either, so good luck getting your hands on one prior to purchasing. Meanwhile the Note 10.1 is at all the usual stores. If the TF701 was at a store where I could have tested some 3D games, I would have known about the poor performance and wouldn't be paying a restocking fee to Newegg. Oh well, live and learn.
I've bought and been disappointed by the top two Transformers now (TF700 & TF701), so I'd like to think I've learned and will not buy another Asus tablet. I should have waited for some more testimony from TF701 owners before purchasing it I guess. Benchmarks and anecdotal exaggerations of the TF701's performance should not have convinced me. There just isn't much info out there about the framerates of 3d games on the TF701. The closest thing to that is a post I made where I show the FPS of several games on my Note, but I can't install FPS Meter on the TF701 since it requires root and I'm returning it so I can't root it. I am a pretty good estimate of FPS though, and I can tell you the TF701 gets trounced in several games by the Note, and doesn't best the Note in any games I tried. IronMan3, for example, plays horribly on the TF701, going under 10 fps during gameplay frequently (every time you fly by a reflective tanker truck at stuff) and looks like a slideshow 4 fps during part of the intro sequence, while the Note pulls over 20 fps in the same intro sequence.
snake2332 said:
I have both tablets and had to choose between them. For me, the Note wins...by a lot.
The supposed lag that a couple people have mentioned with the Note seems bogus to me. Both tablets are fast and only show lag in the same, rare areas. The TouchWiz launcher is surely more susceptible to lag than the Asus launcher, but only in a couple areas. If you use a different launcher, which I'm guessing most people reading XDA do, than both devices feel virtually identical in normal use. They both take 2 seconds to recognize an orientation change. They both take 2 seconds to show you the screen when you wake it up. They both have sub-30fps for the animation when a graphically-intensive app minimizes/maximizes (goes in to and comes out of standby, whatever you wanna call it).
So the SoC's are pretty close in performance...that is until you fire up some 3D games. Basically the Tegra4 just can't drive the WQXGA resolution in lots (most?) 3D games, at least not YET. Maybe some magic improvement will be made in the near future, .
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Compared to my TF700T my TF701T is a speed demon. My games are now lag free. You guys are too quick to jump ship for problems I'm not even experiencing. Especially, when we all know the 4.3 update vastly improves 3D gaming performance..
Faster, Smoother, More Responsive
Android 4.3 builds on the performance improvements already included in Jelly Bean — vsync timing, triple buffering, reduced touch latency, CPU input boost, and hardware-accelerated 2D rendering — and adds new optimizations that make Android even faster.
For a graphics performance boost, the hardware-accelerated 2D renderer now optimizes the stream of drawing commands, transforming it into a more efficient GPU format by rearranging and merging draw operations. For multithreaded processing, the renderer can also now use multithreading across multiple CPU cores to perform certain tasks.
Android 4.3 also improves rendering for shapes and text. Shapes such as circles and rounded rectangles are now rendered at higher quality in a more efficient manner. Optimizations for text include increased performance when using multiple fonts or complex glyph sets (CJK), higher rendering quality when scaling text, and faster rendering of drop shadows.
Improved window buffer allocation results in a faster image buffer allocation for your apps, reducing the time taken to start rendering when you create a window.
For highest-performance graphics, Android 4.3 introduces support for OpenGL ES 3.0 and makes it accessible to apps through both framework and native APIs. On supported devices, the hardware accelerated 2D rendering engine takes advantage of OpenGL ES 3.0 to optimize texture management and increase gradient rendering fidelity.
OpenGL ES 3.0 for High-Performance Graphics
Android 4.3 introduces platform support for Khronos OpenGL ES 3.0, providing games and other apps with highest-performance 2D and 3D graphics capabilities on supported devices. You can take advantage of OpenGL ES 3.0 and related EGL extensions using either framework APIs or native API bindings through the Android Native Development Kit (NDK).
Key new functionality provided in OpenGL ES 3.0 includes acceleration of advanced visual effects, high quality ETC2/EAC texture compression as a standard feature, a new version of the GLSL ES shading language with integer and 32-bit floating point support, advanced texture rendering, and standardized texture size and render-buffer formats.
You can use the OpenGL ES 3.0 APIs to create highly complex, highly efficient graphics that run across a range of compatible Android devices, and you can support a single, standard texture-compression format across those devices.
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Click to collapse
"You can't compare apples to oranges until you have both oranges, side by side, that are equal "
Sent from my Transformer Infinity TF701T using Tapatalk HD
@ snake2332
You mention that the price difference is $ 150,- compared to the note 2014 ed.
But you forgot to tell that the TF710 comes here standard with a dock for that price and the Note 2014 ed. has none.
So everyone must decide by himself what the best buy is.
The wacky dock connection will be solved for sure by Asus and the build quality is for the rest (I have my second one due to the dock problem) excellent.
Be sure the Note has it flaws also (laggy due to their own interface) just read their thread.
So what will it be: TF701 with dock + extra battery for 4 hrs extra or the Note 2014 without dock with laggy touchwiz but with (for now) better gaming performance for $ 150,- more......
Since you're an xda member I would assume that you root and flash roms and such?
You won't see much dev work on the note with its Exynos chip, Samsung doesn't feel that they should be as open sourced with their chips.
You will get much more dev attention with the Asus.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Snah001 said:
@ snake2332
You mention that the price difference is $ 150,- compared to the note 2014 ed.
But you forgot to tell that the TF710 comes here standard with a dock for that price and the Note 2014 ed. has none.
So everyone must decide by himself what the best buy is.
The wacky dock connection will be solved for sure by Asus and the build quality is for the rest (I have my second one due to the dock problem) excellent.
Be sure the Note has it flaws also (laggy due to their own interface) just read their thread.
So what will it be: TF701 with dock + extra battery for 4 hrs extra or the Note 2014 without dock with laggy touchwiz but with (for now) better gaming performance for $ 150,- more......
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Click to collapse
I didn't forget to tell anything other than those prices were in the USA. In this country, the TF701 is $450 with no dock while the Note is $600. This doesn't mean that the TF701 is a better buy just because it's 25% cheaper unless all you're looking for is storage capacity.
I agree the build quality is decent, especially once they recall the bad docks or whatever they are currently doing. I didn't get a dock, so I can't add to that discussion.
Yep I know the Note has flaws, too. It is not laggy due to their own interface unless you basically run it like stock, where all the widgets are enabled and huge and all the features are turned on. Almost no one that reads XDA is going to use TouchWiz as the launcher, though, so the argument that the Note is laggy has no real weight in my mind. Sure, Grandma Marge over here might just use TouchWiz as-is and not delete any widgets or change any options, but seriously the Note isn't laggy no matter how badly your closed-mind tries to make it that way.
---------- Post added at 03:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------
donharden2002 said:
Since you're an xda member I would assume that you root and flash roms and such?
You won't see much dev work on the note with its Exynos chip, Samsung doesn't feel that they should be as open sourced with their chips.
You will get much more dev attention with the Asus.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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Click to collapse
Oh interesting, I didn't know that. I will update the TF701 advantages to reflect.
---------- Post added at 03:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:21 PM ----------
xRevilatioNx said:
Compared to my TF700T my TF701T is a speed demon. My games are now lag free. You guys are too quick to jump ship for problems I'm not even experiencing. Especially, when we all know the 4.3 update vastly improves 3D gaming performance..
Quote:
Faster, Smoother, More Responsive
Android 4.3 builds on the performance improvements already included in Jelly Bean — vsync timing, triple buffering, reduced touch latency, CPU input boost, and hardware-accelerated 2D rendering — and adds new optimizations that make Android even faster.
For a graphics performance boost, the hardware-accelerated 2D renderer now optimizes the stream of drawing commands, transforming it into a more efficient GPU format by rearranging and merging draw operations. For multithreaded processing, the renderer can also now use multithreading across multiple CPU cores to perform certain tasks.
Android 4.3 also improves rendering for shapes and text. Shapes such as circles and rounded rectangles are now rendered at higher quality in a more efficient manner. Optimizations for text include increased performance when using multiple fonts or complex glyph sets (CJK), higher rendering quality when scaling text, and faster rendering of drop shadows.
Improved window buffer allocation results in a faster image buffer allocation for your apps, reducing the time taken to start rendering when you create a window.
For highest-performance graphics, Android 4.3 introduces support for OpenGL ES 3.0 and makes it accessible to apps through both framework and native APIs. On supported devices, the hardware accelerated 2D rendering engine takes advantage of OpenGL ES 3.0 to optimize texture management and increase gradient rendering fidelity.
OpenGL ES 3.0 for High-Performance Graphics
Android 4.3 introduces platform support for Khronos OpenGL ES 3.0, providing games and other apps with highest-performance 2D and 3D graphics capabilities on supported devices. You can take advantage of OpenGL ES 3.0 and related EGL extensions using either framework APIs or native API bindings through the Android Native Development Kit (NDK).
Key new functionality provided in OpenGL ES 3.0 includes acceleration of advanced visual effects, high quality ETC2/EAC texture compression as a standard feature, a new version of the GLSL ES shading language with integer and 32-bit floating point support, advanced texture rendering, and standardized texture size and render-buffer formats.
You can use the OpenGL ES 3.0 APIs to create highly complex, highly efficient graphics that run across a range of compatible Android devices, and you can support a single, standard texture-compression format across those devices.
"You can't compare apples to oranges until you have both oranges, side by side, that are equal "
Sent from my Transformer Infinity TF701T using Tapatalk HD
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Click to collapse
The 4.3 update will improve performance in games once the games update to include ES 3.0 functions, but not on any Tegra4 devices. Don't you know that the Tegra4 is not compliant with 3.0? NVIDIA is blowing off ES 3.0 support until their Tegra5, at which point there will actually be games that use ES 3.0. So no, the 4.3 update isn't going to do jack for the TF701...ever. Sorry for pointing out this revelation to you.
@ snake2332
You can't say I don't have a dock so it is no part in the decision.
In most countries it comes with the dock so it is part of the decision specially because of the 4 hrs extra battery time you gain.
With the same ease as you leave out the dock I can tell you that I have had the Note 2014 for an extended period in my hands, I can say it is laggy.
Only thing you tell is you have to switch off several widgets, apps etc. to let the Note not be laggy but where is the common sense here?
Well the TF701 comes with no lag and all features still enabled.
So when you compare, compare it equally and not let out things because it is not important or that you never use it or not have it (dock).
So be happy with your Note for much more money and let others enjoy their TF701 with dock and extra 4 hrs battery time.
In the end it comes to personal preferences.
Yours are totally different than the ones that most people use to make the choice for a TF701 and that is extra dock with extra battery and with very usable keyboard for 25% less money.
They are waiting until Tegra 5 because games won't be ready for ES 3.0 for almost another 2 years. It's cost effective for them. Why put it in when it isn't utilized yet lol.
We finally have a competitive GPU architecture from NVIDIA. It’s hardly industry leading in terms of specs, but there’s a good amount of the 80mm^2 die dedicated towards pixel and vertex shading hardware. There's also a new L2 texture cache that helps improve overall bandwidth efficiency.
With Tegra 4, complaints about memory bandwidth can finally be thrown out the window. The Tegra 4 SoC features two 32-bit LPDDR3 memory interfaces, bringing it up to par with the competition.
For users today, the lack of OpenGL ES 3.0 support likely doesn’t matter - but it’ll matter more in a year or two when game developers start using OpenGL ES 3.0. NVIDIA is fully capable of building an OpenGL ES 3.0 enabled GPU, and I suspect the resistance here boils down to wanting to win performance comparisons today without making die size any larger than it needs to be.
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Click to collapse
Sent from my Transformer Infinity TF701T using Tapatalk HD
I am happy to announce the project I have been working on. I do not know what direction it will take from here but I thought it was a good time to show it.
A MID, UMPC, tablet, smartphone - anything you want it to be. This is a kind of hybrid between phonebloks/project ara and the nokia n900 series
The wiki should guide you through step by step and answer most questions you may have. I have always thought one of the most important parts of this project is being able to teach others to do this and make it as accessible as possible.
As the wiki mentions, please raise a ticket on the issue tracker if you have a problem. But if you just want to talk about it this thread would be fine and I will try to get back to it from time to time.
Special thanks to people on this forum specifically who made all those Windows Mobile editing toolkits way back and helped me realize what was possible with pocketable devices and move on from there.
Link to SFS MID wiki
I thought I would provide an update here. The project is still ongoing with a mainboard transition from the Raspberry Pi to the Odroid C0 SBC.
The hardware and software has come a long way making for a pleasant experience to use but yet enough flexibility for most situations and users.
As always, you can post here or on the issue tracker if you have any questions or just want to talk about MID development. Thanks and good luck.
This is a 6 month update. The project continues with a switch to the Lattepanda x86 SBC.
More positives than negatives come with the new ecosystem and the future is bright. It is hoped that with the x86 technology the project will become relatable to more people and the architectural reliability will prove to be an advantage.
You can always post here or on the issue tracker if you have any problems, questions or speculation on the future of MID development. Thanks and good luck.
This is one more 6 month update. I am using the Lattepanda x86 SBC exclusively now.
The layout of the devices has been redesigned to be more like a smartphone and there is a new shell available for 3d printing. In addition, the software has undergone an update and there are new development notes including testing with some Raspberry Pi 4 prototypes which ended up being too hot and using too much power. Finally, there are 5 new scripts uploaded and one included with the MID software which deals with multitouch gaming.
It works well but I am hesitant to call the project finished so if you have suggestions let me know.
Hello and welcome to another update on this longrunning project.
The launch of the Raspberry Pi 4 came and went without offering any power savings so the project continued on without it using some alternative platforms. On the dual goal of being able to play PC games, it is only until recently that the 8GB Pi 4 had that potential. Unfortunately there is not enough overhead for Linux gaming even on most low end x86 PC platforms so there is little hope current Pi versions will make for a good PC gaming experience.
If you read the development notes you will see some experiments with portable PC stick hardware running games such as Kerbal Space Program on Linux but those devices were a dead end as far as power savings go. Both in terms of lack of power saving features and in idle and load power draw.
Currently there does not seem to be a small x86 device that has working suspend/sleep/standby mode in Linux which renders the dual goal of a Linux smartphone device that can play modern PC games unattainable.
The VIM3 SBC does have a working suspend mode as well as a wide 5-20v input. This allows for much more battery power and energy without the corresponding
wiring complexity and loss of efficiency that you would have in a device that required "stepping down" the voltage to 5V. "Stepping up" from traditional smartphone and tablet batteries comes with it's own challenges as well. Namely, the effective current limit, maximum available power and conversion inefficiency from such low voltage batteries.
On the gaming front all hope for portable gaming is not lost. I have uploaded a bonus version of Retroarch with VIM3 support to the releases area as well. This release is intended for and works well for the older console systems.
Maybe one day we can get a device with 8GB+ RAM that can play PC games and go to sleep. Until then keep building!
I thought I would slip in and give an update just short of a year. A few patches may be still to come anyway.
The goal of a PC gaming phone-like portable has been largely attained. The Lattepanda Alpha SBC specifically has 8GB RAM and can suspend to save power. With a MID based on it you can do the kinds of things you would do on a smartphone as well as play PC games with a gamepad on the go, keyboard/mouse while docked or perhaps even with the touchscreen. The Lattepanda Delta can suspend and has 4GB RAM and is a cheaper alternative. Recent PC games can be played successfully but I would recommend something like a Steam Deck for cutting edge games. If using Android apps is something you would require in a personal mobile device then the large RAM of the Alpha is something that should make emulation possible. When finished you can put the device to sleep and put it in your rather large pocket.
There is something to be said for a smaller more manageable mobile device that is more the size of a smartphone. Even if that means gaming capability is compromised. The VIM 3 is smaller than the Lattepanda Alpha/Delta and has different USB functionality making for a smaller and simpler overall MID. This is more of a device that you can put in your pocket and hopefully not have it break. You can put a plastic shell around it like a commercial device but you will find that one large enough to give good protection makes the MID too large. I do not consider this a big deal since one of the goals of the project is to put more control into the hands of the user and this includes the realm of repairability. In other words if it breaks you can fix it.
Thus 2 parallel ARM and x86 codebases are being maintained for now. Extensive troubleshooting has been undertaken to fix some long standing hardware
stability problems on both MID platforms as well. Addditionally, all main wiki pages have received an update. Finally, another bonus compiled version of the latest Retroarch source has been added that focuses on PS1 emulation.
A special message for XDA Developers users. Don't throw away your Android phones just yet. As inexpensive as cellular plans are you can keep your phone and tinker with something like this too. But remember that when the automobile was first developed it was considered worse than the horse. Over time it was refined and eventually surpassed the horse as a means of transportation. I think as computer parts become more commoditized ever time something similar will happen and nothing will be able to stop us from putting together a phone ourselves.
I am not sure where it is going to go from here but I look forward to using the devices now that the dream has come true.
I think we should have opened a discussion on some important points,
1 adaptive storage, which I will draw on some specific model as our most has active others such as moto one, G6, and G7, motorcycle c, motorcycle and, we have to see if there is any limitation of hardware or software only thing, because this speech that Google does not support or that the cards do not have enough quality, not real, because every month we have models released with updated with this support.
2, dp vs dpi = 480 standard and high for this screen size, the base of android and 160, then it means that we have a base x3 of scale, this is legal for a worse point on the other, as this increases a lot more quality, the more the information displayed. You gain large, borderless icons plus loses in detail. Solution likely to set screen resolution lower than 540p, to have equibrio between size and quantity, or @ 1080p to have full amount of pixel there is screen, but if it is in stock has to activate a third party lacucher, because Motorola laucher does not support this pattern .
3, gpu is clock different from the specified, because it was to have maxima clock of 850mhz, more in the last version that I did read in the android with rom stock it was in setada the clock max 700mhz, more main problem was that even taking Max to 700mhz, in a good part of game and app it gets 450 MHz with low FPS content, even if it is not in the FPS limit of the game or application, it did not raise clock to its maximum .. probable solution for who has root, exchange governor gpu using kernel auditor, by order or by performance
4, this is less important and only one more doubt, mixed with indignation,. Because Samsung and some other privileged manufacturers can use 32bit android on their handset, which infinitely lighter and less consumer ram. What the 64bit, which Google has been forcing developer to use since the Android ..
It seems to prank some more Samsung with snapdragon 425 and 2gb of ram and HD + screen with 32bit android has usability, and multitasking better than our device that has 630 and 3gb of ram more with Android 64bit.
Mano has 5 years I see Google saying that there is no more Android 32bit, even so every year there is cell phone with input clip using Android 32bit fighting from equal to equal with Android intermediate with Android 64bit.
And I'm sorry if I said some nonsense, I do not understand much about development, but I had several devices and always made modifications, and always following the tropics and the developers
Ermes.mt/brasil said:
I think we should have opened a discussion on some important points,
And I'm sorry if I said some nonsense, I do not understand much about development, but I had several devices and always made modifications, and always following the tropics and the developers
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So.... What are you trying to accomplish with this "discussion" that is probably already addressed in another thread??
jbaumert said:
So.... What are you trying to accomplish with this "discussion" that is probably already addressed in another thread??
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yes and no, yes, because all the tropics in general seek 3 things (support, features or performance), and I'm approaching this three point, and yes! and discussion then everyone is welcome to try on a chair to have a coffee and speak their point of view .. #not much sound on this device and if we do not talk and we work together on it, we will not get a survival of it